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01-05-2016, 11:35 AM   #151
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That is the same answer as we got one month ago on an other french forum from a DxO com manager.
But doesn't dissipate the delay and it's unexpressed reasons...

01-05-2016, 02:45 PM   #152
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We will soon find out if the Nikon D5 sensor review will be published before the 645Z review.
01-06-2016, 02:44 AM   #153
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
As to their lens rankings, the absolute number is fairly meaningless (as it is with the sensor scores). They break it down into resolution and light transmission and those numbers seem to be fairly accurate. The biggest limitation they have is that they don't seem to test many copies of a given lens (few review sites do) and so numbers from someone like Roger Cicala are probably better.

The lens resolution figures DO NOT CONCUR with other lens reviewers INCLUDING the 2nd dodgiest Photozone - DXO is duping people. Its a con ! They lie ! I've done loads of lens review research, and going over to DXO, I be like: what ! this is all over the place with a massive Nikon bias.

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Maybe there is under the table money going to DXO Mark not to support Pentax products, but I really have a hard time imagining Sony or Nikon caring that much about a camera like the 645z to pay them to keep DXO Mark from supporting it.
I wasn't suggesting under table payments, I'm suggesting DXO could be owned or part owned through the parent company of Nikon - which I believe is Mitsubishi heavy industries or something. I could be wrong, but there's probably some sort of commercial interest there. There's something not right here with DXO, so I don't use the site because its nonsense.

Why the 645Z hasn't been tested for so long has nothing to do with its market share, because DXO seems to rapidly testing OTHER medium format makers.
01-06-2016, 03:01 AM   #154
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Why the 645Z hasn't been tested for so long has nothing to do with its market share, because DXO seems to rapidly testing OTHER medium format makers.
The latest MF camera i can find in dxomark published tests are from Leica S released in sep 2012. The review on it was released February 26 2014.
No result from MF cameras using CMOS sensors have been published. So basically no MF camera/back released the last 2-3 years have been tested.


Last edited by Fogel70; 01-06-2016 at 03:09 AM.
01-06-2016, 03:15 AM   #155
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
The latest MF camera i can find in dxomark published tests are from Leica S released in sep 2012. The review on it was released February 26 2014.
No result from MF cameras using CMOS sensors have been published. So basically no MF camera/back released the last 2-3 years have been tested.
Further up this thread someone mentioned DXO recently tested some new Phase One I think it was. Funny how they're boycotting medium format cameras.
01-06-2016, 10:11 AM   #156
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As pointed by monochrome, probably because of low sales volumes of their software for MF shooters.
01-06-2016, 10:14 AM   #157
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
As pointed by monochrome, probably because of low sales volumes of their software for MF shooters.
Well if they don't test MF cams and don't care aout MF cams, they won't sell their software will they?
01-06-2016, 10:59 AM   #158
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There must be a breakpoint btw testing + monitoring + coding a new sensor in the DxO Optics Pro software, and selling enough licences to get enough ROI

01-06-2016, 05:49 PM   #159
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
The lens resolution figures DO NOT CONCUR with other lens reviewers INCLUDING the 2nd dodgiest Photozone - DXO is duping people. Its a con ! They lie ! I've done loads of lens review research, and going over to DXO, I be like: what ! this is all over the place with a massive Nikon bias.
Of course there Nikon bias until recently Nikon had the cameras with the most MP and contrary to many reviewers that keep reviewing with old camera of 16 or 24MP for a few years, DxO review their lenses on all cameras so you can check what the lens does on your own camera instead of some other camera the reviewer happen to have.

For sure if you use the best camera from each brand, the brand that gona win is the one with the more MP in term of resolution. That's quite obvious.
01-06-2016, 11:31 PM   #160
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There seems to be more behind the score than just the measurements presented on the first page.
New lenses seem to have a large advantage on the score (at least for Nikon).

Nikon D750 with 85/1.8D (1994) get 19MP and score 31
Nikon D750 with 85/1.8G (2012) get 21MP and score 39
Nikon D750 with 85/1.4G (2010) get 22MP and score 39

Nikon D810 with 85/1.8D get 22MP and score 34
Nikon D810 with 85/1.8G get 26MP and score 43
Nikon D810 with 85/1.4G get 30MP and score 42

Canon 5DS R with 85/1.8 (1992) get 23MP and score 35
Canon 5DS R with 85/1.2 (1989) get 30MP and score 38
Canon 5DS R with 85/1.2 II (2006) get 23MP and score 37
It's strange that ver II of 85/1.2 get so much lower MP, but that seems to be based on f/1.2 vs f/2 on the older version.


When checking tests on 50/1.8 lenses on 24MP APS-C cameras Pentax seems to do very well.
Canon 760D get 12MP and score 21
Nikon 7100 get 13MP and score 20
Pentax K3 get 12MP and score 25

Pentax lens measure much better in Chr. aberration which may explain the better score.

Last edited by Fogel70; 01-07-2016 at 12:57 AM.
01-07-2016, 12:34 PM   #161
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
There seems to be more behind the score than just the measurements presented on the first page.
No.

But the score follows a contorted logic.

The "MP" number is basically determined by the camera resolution and the lens sweet spot wrt focal and aperture (not sweet spot wrt to center of the frame though).

However, the score considers the MP score at each aperture and how the camera's noise level increases when closing the aperture. Therefore, the total score penalizes small apertures and in order to score best, you have to achieve a high MP score at a wide aperture already. Which does also mean that a noisier camera leads to lower lens scores. That's one reason small sensor cameras have no chance to score well.

All of this isn't intuitive at all which is why DxO lens scores are confusing to most people, to say it politely...

OTOH, there is a foundation behind this awkward method to score camera+lenses. The best scoring combo should produce the best overall image quality indeed. Problem is that this only holds true while DxO's assumptions about the photographic use case hold true.

Last edited by falconeye; 01-07-2016 at 12:41 PM.
01-07-2016, 02:54 PM   #162
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
No.

But the score follows a contorted logic.
As the noise level on the camera is part of the score, then there is definitely something more than lens measurements presented that affect the score.

Which may explain why FI Nikon 85/1.8G on D750 score better than Canon 85/1.2 on 5DS R. Even though Nikon measure 21MP with best aperture at f/1.8 and Canon measure 30MP with best aperture at F/2.0.
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01-07-2016, 04:20 PM   #163
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
As the noise level on the camera is part of the score, then there is definitely something more than lens measurements presented that affect the score.
DxO nowhere claims that the "lens" score is a lens score. They are pretty insistent to point out that their scores are for camera+lens combos.

In the example you give, the Nikon wins because of two factors: sharpness breaks down later if you widen the aperture up. And the D750 has a much better DxO sensor score than the 5DS.

In other words, the Nikon lens/camera is better if you don't have infinite light while the Canon lens/camera is better if you do. That's what the two scores are good for.

What I personally don't like is that DxO doesn't allow me to refactor the equation. I.e., I either trust their photographic assumptions or their score is useless to me. I would prefer a more detailed break-down of results allowing me to do the factorization myself. Like what they do with their three sensor scores.
01-07-2016, 05:40 PM   #164
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
DxO nowhere claims that the "lens" score is a lens score. They are pretty insistent to point out that their scores are for camera+lens combos.
This is their description of the lens test table.

"EXPLORE LENS SCORES & REVIEWS
DxOMark's comprehensive camera lens test result database allows you to browse and select lenses for comparison based on its characteristics, brand, price, lens type, lens size, focal range and aperture. You can also selet a camera in order to have all the lenses tested on it.

With DxOMark you can display the lenses with three different views - Grid, List or Graph in order for you to have the best solution to compare the filtered results. Choose the lenses you want to compare from the results below. Then in the selection box, you can check up to three lenses at a time to compare their measurements."


It would not hurt is they displayed camera measurements used to combine the score together with lens measurements, in the overview.

QuoteQuote:
In the example you give, the Nikon wins because of two factors: sharpness breaks down later if you widen the aperture up. And the D750 has a much better DxO sensor score than the 5DS.

In other words, the Nikon lens/camera is better if you don't have infinite light while the Canon lens/camera is better if you do. That's what the two scores are good for.
The Nikon overall sensor score is 93 and the Canon is 86, so there is not a big difference in score. According to dxomark 5 point difference in score equals 1/3 stop difference. Low light ISO does not differ that much either (Nikon = 2956) (Canon = 2308)

And as dxomark only use low light to evaluate the lens, they would miss that maybe the largest advantage of D750 is DR at infinite light, so there might be more of an advantage of using D750 in this condition, than in low light where the two camera perform closer. So it seems that the disadvantage Canon has in camera score of low ISO is transferred to low light conditions in lens tests, if overall camera score is used in lens tests.

QuoteQuote:
What I personally don't like is that DxO doesn't allow me to refactor the equation. I.e., I either trust their photographic assumptions or their score is useless to me. I would prefer a more detailed break-down of results allowing me to do the factorization myself. Like what they do with their three sensor scores.
I agree, and some of the lens test graphs are pretty useless.
Like FI the sharpness graph, where the scale goes from 1MP to 12+ MP, So on many cameras, lenses score will be "off the scale".

Last edited by Fogel70; 01-07-2016 at 05:53 PM.
01-08-2016, 02:05 AM   #165
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You're in bad faith on this point Fogel70 the text you quote is about the query tool on the base not describing what the scores are made of. It's pretty explicit DxOMark Lens scores - DxOMark .
The sharpness map is useful mainly for zoom or to find out from which aperture you expect a lens to perform well. If you need more detailed info you have the acutance graph.

70 Ltd on a K3, it's not all green (Sharpness >> P-MPix map): http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Pentax/Pentax-smc-DA-70mm-F24-Limited-mounted-...surements__914

Last edited by Glorfindelrb; 01-08-2016 at 02:18 AM.
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