[BrianR]

I think the problem which I see with all these discussions is that folks look at them on a pixel level and on a pixel level, the D800 and K5 will be exactly the same with regard to noise, but if you go to print a K5 and D800 print, you will definitely see a difference as long as you print them at the same size.

Some folks like to look at things on a pixel level. Some folks like to look at things at the same print size. Then these different groups of folk meet in the back alleys of forums armed with different conclusions and the inevitable rumble ensues. And a rumble between photographers is never a pretty thing- this is no backstreet breakdance fight. Pixels get scattered, prints get trampled, test charts set aflame, aperture blades bent out of shape. It's a real mess.

[normhead]

I would suggest the rumbles are completely attributable to people talking about what they do, assuming themselves to be unbiased, and putting completely biased opinions out there with no supporting evidence. If people stick to what they know, don't make assumptions about equipment they don't have based on test reports or reviews, don't assume that because they owned a lens and found it lacking, that other people don't have better copies.

All the forum scuffles are because people post their assumptions, usually without anything but printed assumptions, or assumptions based on small samples. If people would simply do their homework and find out what they are talking about, most of this would go away. But we have people who don't own a K-3 comparing D750s and K-3s. We have people who don't own good zooms, commenting on zoom vs prime, we have people stating their preferences as advice to other people. We have people telling people not to buy lenses, that other people get absolute;y fantastic images with.

If you want to stop the forum squabbles. Tell people what works for you, but, don't say other people can't do it another way, or that your way is better. Let your work speak for you. Don't put down equipment that other people own. If everyone is positive, and just states the case without all the negative stuff, things will be smoother.

You can't prove a negative. So don't post one.

You don't see intelligent people arguing with Digitalis, because he posts images that show exactly what he's talking about. He gives you both context and concrete examples, i.e., photos.

Nothing pisses anyone off like some loud mouth telling the world their favourite lens or camera sucks. That type of person should be banned. You want to trash my _____ <insert lens name here>, fine go do it on a Nikon forum, where no one knows any better. You want to claim primes always get you a better image, do it somewhere else. If you can't make a case without putting down something else, you don't have a case.

People who come on here and get negative about other people's gear are usually just picking fights. And that's all anyone who wants to get into something like zooms vs primes, when clearly, they both have a place, is definitely just trolling.

I mean honestly, what kind of clown says crap like "zooms are for convenience primes are for quality images". A troll clown, that's what kind.

[BrianR]

If you want to stop the forum squabbles. Tell people what works for you, but, don't say other people can't do it another way, or that your way is better. Let you work stand speak for you. Don't put down equipment that other people own. If everyone is positive, and just states the case without all the negative stuff, things will be smoother.

Yea, because it's never happened that someone has clearly stated their opinion and labeled it as such and then had someone else declare how confused they were in an attempt to push their own methods of shooting on everyone else.

[rullrich]

Let you work stand speak for you [...]
You don't see intelligent people arguing with Digitalis, because he posts images that show exactly what he's talking about. He gives you both context and concrete examples, i.e., photos.

Please make these sentences a forum rule!

[normhead]

Yea, because it's never happened that someone has clearly stated their opinion and labeled it as such and then had someone else declare how confused they were in an attempt to push their own methods of shooting on everyone else.

Because when people state those opinions they never say what they should say. "other people who have different opinions get just as good or better results." Honestly, most don't care about your opinions, they care about your images.

If your opinion is something more restrictive than " find the lens you love and shoot with it" it's not advice, it's proselytizing. Encourage people to find what they love, your opinion on what that should be is restrictive. Those opinions don't belong in lens advice threads. Now if you want to start a thread "BrianR's opinion on this that or the other" we can all go there and discuss that, without confusing some newbie who's just trying to figure out what lens to buy next.

When I see 77ltd images, I think, "I would love to have that lens in my bag, even if I didn't use it very much". When I read the reviews and see the charts I often think, it's nothing special. Less opinion, more images.

After all some people's "opinions" if made public constitute hate crimes. The fact that it's an opinion doesn't make it worth while.

[BrianR]

I think we have different views on the use of these forums. I'm here for facts I can't find myself, other peoples opinions on things, and looking at pretty pictures. "What lens/camera should I buy" threads will always contain facts (camera X doesn't have feature Y) and opinions (I like Y for doing Z) and hopefully pretty pictures (here's Z). I try to always value the opinions of others and the time they take to express them. Different perspectives make the world go round.

Because when people state those opinions they never say what they should say. "other people who have different opinions get just as good or better results." Honestly, most don't care about your opinions, they care about your images.

Henceforth, let every post have more disclaimers than content!

Notes:

1) this is just my opinion on how a post should be composed
2) others have composed equally effective posts using different criteria
3) your enjoyment of a post may or may not be as dependent on the included disclaimers as my enjoyment
4) I live in Ontario, Canada, you folk from other countries may have wildly different views on what disclaimers are require
5) If I've forgotten your favorite disclaimer, don't view it as a slight that I don't value that disclaimer, it's just my failing memory and tired fingers.
6) I've run out of disclaimers, you may have more or less disclaimers to include.

[Nicolas06]

Nothing pisses anyone off like some loud mouth telling the world their favourite lens or camera sucks. That type of person should be banned. You want to trash my _____ <insert lens name here>, fine go do it on a Nikon forum, where no one knows any better.

If you can't make a case without putting down something else, you don't have a case.

If you have to crop 10% of your image, there isn't a prime around that will outperform, the best zooms.

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/310496-new-...#ixzz3vjVWrHyJ

Basically you have no issue making case putting down something else as long this is not your own opinion. You are not special normhead, very. You criticize other people behavior but act exactly like them on the occasion. And exactly like them, if they insist on their point of view, you insist even more and complain about their behavior.

If we were to ban everybody that say something negative on a piece of gear not only everybody would get banned pretty soon, you and me first but it would be very difficult to get any advice as many time people don't just want something in a vaccumm but do it as a compromize on many factors.

[normhead]

If we were to ban everybody that say something negative on a piece of gear not only everybody would get banned pretty soon, you and me first but it would be very difficult to get any advice as many time people don't just want something in a vaccumm but do it as a compromize on many factors.

Ya right... believe what you want.

Henceforth, let every post have more disclaimers than content!

Just promote your own gear, tell people what it will do and show them, and it will be fine. You only need disclaimers if you're going to trash other peoples gear. Even if you own or owned a piece of gear, you don't know your copy was a good copy, so it's still not cool trashing gear other people own.
I have never once trashed anyone for being happy with a lens they own and the image they got with it.

And if you don't believe me, reading all my 17,000 of my post trying to prove me wrong is an acceptable punishment.

You guys do it on a regular basis.

How many times have the clowns on this forum come on here and trashed the 18-135? Clowns that have never as posted an image as good as some of my 18-135 images, in a lot of cases. How many clowns say I just use it for convenience? It has it's strengths just like any other lens. How many clowns say it's soft on the edges? It's not, it's soft on the edges until t's over 50mm, at 24mm it's razor sharp. How many times have people claimed it's soft, comparing it to a focal length where the lens they are championing is softer in that focal length? How many times do these things have to be corrected before people stop passing out the cool aid. it's really simple. Do you not understand what bunch of fools you look like, to those of us who have learned how to use it? We have a choice, your bias or our images. Most of the time we'll take our images. I feel sorry for any fool walking around with a couple of primes because he listened to your advice about leaving huge gaps in your line up.

Do people read a few spots, and reviews and then think they can come on here and trash a lens, because, a few reviewers didn't like it, or because they owned it but couldn't figure out how to use it? What? DO they say "yuck, yuck, yuck, I'm an expert, after they do it? At least try and have some class.

There aren't a lot of really bad lenses, but there are a lot of people who blame the lens when they don't get the image they want. How is the average Joe supposed to tell the difference?

Honestly stop, generalizing, stop claiming other people's lenses suck, and learn to just promote what you do. Show people what you do and the tell them what lenses you use at what settings. That's your argument.

Would be happy if everyone who said "blah blah lens isn't any good was banned." TO me, that's offensive to every person that owns that lens. It's insulting, it's degrading, it's snooty and shouldn't be tolerated. And if someone has to go a little negative to defend a lens and point out where folks are wrong, too bad. Don't post negative stuff to start with an we won't ever get into this stuff.

If you think another lens is better for something show people why. Don't go all negative on their lens, whether it's a cheap zoom or an expensive prime. And certainly don't get negative because it's a zoom, or because it's a prime.

For example, just in case ups aren't getting it.
Saying " I really l think my 16-85 might be the lens you're looking for." is cool, no one can argue with that. l. Saying the 16-85 is better than the 18-135 or even the 18-55, that is not clearly an opinion, that appears to be a statement of fact. And, it could be wrong. There's a way to do this. Believe it or not, you can recommend one lens over another, and suggest it's the best choice without claiming it's better than some other lens, just by showing off it's strengths. Many time when you do that,the person you are addressing will just say, "I don't take that type of image" and move on. And many times what lens is best for that person is completely dependant on their particular circumstances. You can never say which lens is better for another person. You can only point out which lenses can do the job, or what lenses you think might be good.

Don't listen to me I don't care. Just don't get on my case for trying to clean up your generalizations.

[beholder3]

I think normheads is rightfully pointing out that there is people who strive for the best and losers who just whine and try to make things appear worse for others.

In school you can compete by trying be better than your mate. Or you can be the type of sucker to crawl to the teacher and whine at your mate having used a cheat sheet in the last exercise to drag him down.

In sports you can try to run faster than your mate. Or you can put nails in the shoes of your mate and thus make him slower.

Two ways to respond to the same challenges of life. Improve yourself or drag others down.

You can just acknowledge the fact that the 645z now has the best sensor ever scored by Dxo and be happy and envious for the users of such a tool.
Or you can start with the "but"s and "comparisons" and try to make it look less of an achievement.
Sorry for the connection back to topic.

[RonHendriks1966]

Just promote your own gear, tell people what it will do and show them, and it will be fine. You only need disclaimers if you're going to trash other peoples gear. Even if you own or owned a piece of gear, you don't know your copy was a good copy, so it's still not cool trashing gear other people own.
I have never once trashed anyone for being happy with a lens they own and the image they got with it.

And if you don't believe me, reading all my 17,000 of my post trying to prove me wrong is an acceptable punishment.

You guys do it on a regular basis.

How many times have the clowns on this forum come on here and trashed the 18-135? Clowns that have never as posted an image as good as some of my 18-135 images, in a lot of cases. How many clowns say I just use it for convenience? It has it's strengths just like any other lens. How many clowns say it's soft on the edges? It's not, it's soft on the edges until t's over 50mm, at 24mm it's razor sharp. How many times have people claimed it's soft, comparing it to a focal length where the lens they are championing is softer in that focal length? How many times do these things have to be corrected before people stop passing out the cool aid. it's really simple. Do you not understand what bunch of fools you look like, to those of us who have learned how to use it? We have a choice, your bias or our images. Most of the time we'll take our images. I feel sorry for any fool walking around with a couple of primes because he listened to your advice about leaving huge gaps in your line up.

Do people read a few spots, and reviews and then think they can come on here and trash a lens, because, a few reviewers didn't like it, of because they owned it but couldn't figure out how to use it? What? DO they say "yuck, yuck, yuck, I'm an expert, after they do it? At least try and have some class/
"
There aren't a lot of really bad lenses, but there are a lot of people who blame the lens when they don't get the image they want. How is the average Joe supposed to tell the difference?

Honestly stop, generalizing, stop claiming other people's lenses suck, and learn to just promote what you do. Show people what you do and the tell them what lenses you use at what settings. That's your argument.

Would be happy if everyone who said "blah blah lens isn't any good was banned." TO me, that's offensive to every person that owns that lens. It's insulting, it's degrading, it's snooty and shouldn't be tolerated. And if someone has to go a little negative to defend a lens and point out where folks are wrong, too bad. Don't post negative stuff to start with an we won't ever get into this stuff.

If you think another lens is better for something show people why. Don't go all negative on their lens, whether it's a cheap zoom or an expensive prime. And certainly don't get negative because it's a zoom, or because it's a prime.

For example, just in case ups aren't getting it.
Saying " I really l think my 16-85 might be the lens you're looking for." is coo, no one can argue with that. l. Saying the 16-85 is better than the 18-135 or even the 18-55, that is not clearly an opinion, that appears to be a statement of fact. And, it could be wrong. There's a way to do this. Believe it or not, you can recommend one lens over another, and suggest it's the best choice without claiming it's better than some other lens, just by showing off it's strengths. And many times what lens is best for that person is completely dependant on their particular circumstances. You can never say which lens is better for another person. You can only point out which lenses can do the job.

Don't listen to me I don't care. Just don't get on my case for trying to clean up your generalizations.

You should watch Ed. It's about this topic and it keeps you off the street for a good half hour.

Youtu.be

Youtu.be

[thibs]

What ? Feeling as you're the target, Ron?

[Kunzite]

And if you don't believe me, reading all my 17,000 of my post trying to prove me wrong is an acceptable punishment.

If this was PDML, it would make into the annual quotation list. Nice!

[Zygonyx]

You should watch Ed. It's about this topic and it keeps you off the street for a good half hour.

https://youtu.be/0cndqXPSm7M

I'm affraid that video is a scandalous political act : did you notice the small "TRUMP" sticker in the back left up of that guy ?

[RonHendriks1966]

I'm affraid that video is a scandalous political act : did you notice the small "TRUMP" sticker in the back left up of that guy ?

I didn't, but Hey, if it's their next President....

---------- Post added 29-12-15 at 22:57 ----------

What ? Feeling as you're the target, Ron?

Just a fan of Ed. Ed's always right......If not in this video then he will be in the next.

[Dave L]

You can just acknowledge the fact that the 645z now has the best sensor ever scored by Dxo and be happy and envious for the users of such a tool.

This makes me wonder, having read most but not all the posts in this thread, have we established or can we sensibly guess why DXO still haven't included the 645Z sensor ratings in their database? We know they have the ratings, but with no explanation from them months after publication was promised, it makes my suspicious mind wonder why.