Pentax 645Z scores 101 at DxOMark

Nicolas06 · 02-02-2016, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I just have a hard time believing that Canon or Nikon would care enough about Pentax full frame to pay DXO Mark not to release its results. And I can't think of any other reason that they wouldn't do it. Their goal is to sell software and plenty of Nikon/Canon/Sony users will continue to purchase their software -- regardless of who is at the top of the sensor standings.

I have no clue as to why they aren't releasing the data they clearly have, but I refuse to buy into a big conspiracy theory.

Oh there are reasons for me obviously.

Dxo is a raw editing software, they are dependent of the camera maker to read raws, have the specs of latest camera and their way to calibrate things mean they also need to have every camera and lens ever released for all brands. They would have to detect faulty lenses and get a new one and so on. To not be too long when a camera is released they need to have it as soon as possible.

You have noticed that it was a normal user that sent the lenses and camera to DxO, a bit like for photozone.

But let's imagine that you need to cover whole Canon and Nikon and Sony. You could have an agreement from them to lend you all the gear for testing, maybe even in advance. i mean if I was to buy the latest/great camera/lens and ligtroom was ready and not DxO, I might very well decide to buy a lightroom license.

On the opposite, camera maker could decide to sue you if you make them look bad for, picking on stupid reason but still being a problem. They could refuse to give you the gear you needs or the specs or even got to the pain to say something like "works best with lightroom" on some advertisements, camera manual or websites... As the underdog, this would be really annoying and maybe enough to get out of business.

This of course only the most obvious possibilities but DxO also sell imaging software for cameras, sure that their clients are in power of buying again or not, starting to use their products or not. Another way to put pressure.

We don't know all the details but clearly the big player spend money on advertising campaigns and to increase their brand power and availability. I would not be surprised they had asked for DxOMark to avoid unfortunate results to show.

Sure this can't be too official but as I suspect a non negligible share of the market buy based on benchmarks and tests reviews, having the good "social skills" could be a very efficient way to get results.

bibz · 02-02-2016, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Phase One are about to contribute Capture One into the DxO company, therefore the DxO guys do not want to upset them.

Welp, there ya go. Even in ongoing discussions would they not want to upset them. Always found these nutters fishy.

thibs · 02-02-2016, 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I just have a hard time believing that Canon or Nikon would care enough about Pentax full frame to pay DXO Mark not to release its results. And I can't think of any other reason that they wouldn't do it. Their goal is to sell software and plenty of Nikon/Canon/Sony users will continue to purchase their software -- regardless of who is at the top of the sensor standings.

I have no clue as to why they aren't releasing the data they clearly have, but I refuse to buy into a big conspiracy theory.

Well, a huge company as Intel played very dirty tricks to AMD, stupidly little powerless compared to them. I wouldn't rule that possibility at all.

**fs999** · 02-02-2016, 09:43 AM

Originally posted by Zygonyx

Even worse : the diagram showing the main data has been withdrawn from Sony's RX1RrII test presentation....

That's what I said 12 days ago...

Zygonyx · 02-02-2016, 09:48 AM

Yes i remember, but nothing has changed... still true

**Rondec** · 02-02-2016, 09:50 AM

Maybe you all are right. If there is a company that is benefiting, it is Sony. The way that DXO Mark does its scoring definitely gives an advantage to low iso dynamic range and that is where Sony sensors excel. Canon on the other hand is relegated to second tier, even though when it comes to high iso, their cameras are actually pretty decent.

**sbh** · 02-02-2016, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Phase One are about to contribute Capture One into the DxO company, therefore the DxO guys do not want to upset them.

Can you rephrase that in other words please? I'm not sure what that means because dxo have their own raw editor.

cali92rs · 02-02-2016, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by Rondec

Canon on the other hand is relegated to second tier, even though when it comes to high iso, their cameras are actually pretty decent.

Canon must not be paying them enough because their sensors score pretty low

Mistral75 · 02-02-2016, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by sbh

Can you rephrase that in other words please? I'm not sure what that means because dxo have their own raw editor.

Sell Capture One to DxO Labs in exchange of a stake in the DxO Labs company, leading to the merger of both software in the future and possibly granting Phase One the control over DxO Labs. Market concentration, to make it short.

Dave L · 02-02-2016, 06:54 PM - **2 Likes**

Originally posted by Rondec

I just have a hard time believing that Canon or Nikon would care enough about Pentax full frame to pay DXO Mark not to release its results. And I can't think of any other reason that they wouldn't do it. Their goal is to sell software and plenty of Nikon/Canon/Sony users will continue to purchase their software -- regardless of who is at the top of the sensor standings.

I have no clue as to why they aren't releasing the data they clearly have, but I refuse to buy into a big conspiracy theory.

Without a plausible explanation from them, it amounts to misrepresentation and frankly, wrecks whatever credibility as independent reviewers they had. If they have by unreasonable delay manipulated their league tables this time, they are likely to have done it in the past and will likely do so again in the future.

It really is as simple as that.

Zygonyx · 02-02-2016, 07:42 PM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Sell Capture One to DxO Labs in exchange of a stake in the DxO Labs company, leading to the merger of both software in the future and possibly granting Phase One the control over DxO Labs. Market concentration, to make it short.

Could this be a consequence of poor commercial performance of DxO One ?
DxO would have been "captured by Ones".

Any source ?

Mistral75 · 02-04-2016, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by Zygonyx

Could this be a consequence of poor commercial performance of DxO One ?
DxO would have been "captured by Ones".

Any source ?

I think I mislead you. This was just my contribution to the conspiracy theory... or wasn't it?

VoiceOfReason · 02-05-2016, 09:00 AM

I wonder why it doesn't show up in the main database.

**clackers** · 02-05-2016, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by VoiceOfReason

I wonder why it doesn't show up in the main database.

Ah, read the thread title but not the posts, VoR? :-D

VoiceOfReason · 02-05-2016, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by clackers

Ah, read the thread title but not the posts, VoR? :-D

Screwing off at work, so nope.

02-02-2016, 09:48 AM	#230
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Yes i remember, but nothing has changed... still true Last edited by Zygonyx; 02-02-2016 at 09:57 AM.

02-02-2016, 07:42 PM	#236
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Originally posted by Mistral75 Sell Capture One to DxO Labs in exchange of a stake in the DxO Labs company, leading to the merger of both software in the future and possibly granting Phase One the control over DxO Labs. Market concentration, to make it short. Could this be a consequence of poor commercial performance of DxO One ? DxO would have been "captured by Ones". Any source ? Last edited by Zygonyx; 02-02-2016 at 08:10 PM.

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02-02-2016, 06:08 AM	#226
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by Rondec I just have a hard time believing that Canon or Nikon would care enough about Pentax full frame to pay DXO Mark not to release its results. And I can't think of any other reason that they wouldn't do it. Their goal is to sell software and plenty of Nikon/Canon/Sony users will continue to purchase their software -- regardless of who is at the top of the sensor standings. I have no clue as to why they aren't releasing the data they clearly have, but I refuse to buy into a big conspiracy theory. Oh there are reasons for me obviously. Dxo is a raw editing software, they are dependent of the camera maker to read raws, have the specs of latest camera and their way to calibrate things mean they also need to have every camera and lens ever released for all brands. They would have to detect faulty lenses and get a new one and so on. To not be too long when a camera is released they need to have it as soon as possible. You have noticed that it was a normal user that sent the lenses and camera to DxO, a bit like for photozone. But let's imagine that you need to cover whole Canon and Nikon and Sony. You could have an agreement from them to lend you all the gear for testing, maybe even in advance. i mean if I was to buy the latest/great camera/lens and ligtroom was ready and not DxO, I might very well decide to buy a lightroom license. On the opposite, camera maker could decide to sue you if you make them look bad for, picking on stupid reason but still being a problem. They could refuse to give you the gear you needs or the specs or even got to the pain to say something like "works best with lightroom" on some advertisements, camera manual or websites... As the underdog, this would be really annoying and maybe enough to get out of business. This of course only the most obvious possibilities but DxO also sell imaging software for cameras, sure that their clients are in power of buying again or not, starting to use their products or not. Another way to put pressure. We don't know all the details but clearly the big player spend money on advertising campaigns and to increase their brand power and availability. I would not be surprised they had asked for DxOMark to avoid unfortunate results to show. Sure this can't be too official but as I suspect a non negligible share of the market buy based on benchmarks and tests reviews, having the good "social skills" could be a very efficient way to get results.

02-02-2016, 06:11 AM	#227
bibz Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Newcastle, AU! Posts: 276	Originally posted by Mistral75 Phase One are about to contribute Capture One into the DxO company, therefore the DxO guys do not want to upset them. Welp, there ya go. Even in ongoing discussions would they not want to upset them. Always found these nutters fishy.

02-02-2016, 07:28 AM	#228
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Rondec I just have a hard time believing that Canon or Nikon would care enough about Pentax full frame to pay DXO Mark not to release its results. And I can't think of any other reason that they wouldn't do it. Their goal is to sell software and plenty of Nikon/Canon/Sony users will continue to purchase their software -- regardless of who is at the top of the sensor standings. I have no clue as to why they aren't releasing the data they clearly have, but I refuse to buy into a big conspiracy theory. Well, a huge company as Intel played very dirty tricks to AMD, stupidly little powerless compared to them. I wouldn't rule that possibility at all.

02-02-2016, 09:43 AM	#229
fs999 Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Luxembourg Photos: Gallery Posts: 8,646	Originally posted by Zygonyx Even worse : the diagram showing the main data has been withdrawn from Sony's RX1RrII test presentation.... That's what I said 12 days ago...

02-02-2016, 09:50 AM	#231
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Maybe you all are right. If there is a company that is benefiting, it is Sony. The way that DXO Mark does its scoring definitely gives an advantage to low iso dynamic range and that is where Sony sensors excel. Canon on the other hand is relegated to second tier, even though when it comes to high iso, their cameras are actually pretty decent.

02-02-2016, 03:36 PM	#232
sbh Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Black Forest, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 852	Originally posted by Mistral75 Phase One are about to contribute Capture One into the DxO company, therefore the DxO guys do not want to upset them. Can you rephrase that in other words please? I'm not sure what that means because dxo have their own raw editor.

02-02-2016, 04:01 PM	#233
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by Rondec Canon on the other hand is relegated to second tier, even though when it comes to high iso, their cameras are actually pretty decent. Canon must not be paying them enough because their sensors score pretty low

02-02-2016, 04:26 PM	#234
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527 Original Poster	Originally posted by sbh Can you rephrase that in other words please? I'm not sure what that means because dxo have their own raw editor. Sell Capture One to DxO Labs in exchange of a stake in the DxO Labs company, leading to the merger of both software in the future and possibly granting Phase One the control over DxO Labs. Market concentration, to make it short.

02-02-2016, 06:54 PM - 2 Likes	#235
Dave L Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Hampshire UK Posts: 306	Originally posted by Rondec I just have a hard time believing that Canon or Nikon would care enough about Pentax full frame to pay DXO Mark not to release its results. And I can't think of any other reason that they wouldn't do it. Their goal is to sell software and plenty of Nikon/Canon/Sony users will continue to purchase their software -- regardless of who is at the top of the sensor standings. I have no clue as to why they aren't releasing the data they clearly have, but I refuse to buy into a big conspiracy theory. Without a plausible explanation from them, it amounts to misrepresentation and frankly, wrecks whatever credibility as independent reviewers they had. If they have by unreasonable delay manipulated their league tables this time, they are likely to have done it in the past and will likely do so again in the future. It really is as simple as that.

02-04-2016, 01:58 AM	#237
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527 Original Poster	Originally posted by Zygonyx Could this be a consequence of poor commercial performance of DxO One ? DxO would have been "captured by Ones". Any source ? I think I mislead you. This was just my contribution to the conspiracy theory... or wasn't it?

02-05-2016, 09:00 AM	#238
VoiceOfReason Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mishawaka IN area Photos: Albums Posts: 6,124	I wonder why it doesn't show up in the main database.

02-05-2016, 12:05 PM	#239
clackers Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Melbourne Photos: Albums Posts: 16,397	Originally posted by VoiceOfReason I wonder why it doesn't show up in the main database. Ah, read the thread title but not the posts, VoR? :-D

02-05-2016, 12:16 PM	#240
VoiceOfReason Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mishawaka IN area Photos: Albums Posts: 6,124	Originally posted by clackers Ah, read the thread title but not the posts, VoR? :-D Screwing off at work, so nope.