Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
01-01-2016, 12:16 PM   #181
mee
Pentaxian




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,865
QuoteOriginally posted by savoche Quote
I trust your Swedish is flawless
Doesn't have to be.. we're on a web forum that uses English to communicate. Use a word once incorrectly and I can overlook it, more than once incorrectly demands mention as it was clearly not a typo. Of course, unless you enjoy watching people misspell words. As for me, I'd rather be corrected as to enhance my ability to communicate in the future. It is about caring for your fellow forum goers.

01-01-2016, 12:17 PM   #182
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,325
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Everything depends on the parameters of the argument, which is why we can't agree on anything.
That is the issue of all these discussions.

Unless we have one ruling dictator who can say that "100% viewing" is forbidden, the "right" way to compare things is a matter of personal taste = parameters. It's all about personal preferences of consuming photos.

Arguable matter of taste like this:
And if we want to start "normalizing" things before comparing, the first thing you'd have to do is to compare only equivalent pictures with the same image quality = sharpness in the depth of field. If you do this, suddenly you will face the fact that large sensors simply do not improve noise performance at all. They can not because of the laws of physics.
01-01-2016, 12:20 PM   #183
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,228
QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
That is the issue of all these discussions.

Unless we have one ruling dictator who can say that "100% viewing" is forbidden, the "right" way to compare things is a matter of personal taste = parameters. It's all about personal preferences of consuming photos.
As long as people realize what they're actually comparing/measuring. Which is more difficult than it seems

There are many kinds of normalization, and I really don't think one whose purpose is to make all cameras appear "equal" as having any usefulness IRL. IRL, you often can use a larger sensor to get better noise performance, better detail etc. Or you could get worse results. We should be very careful not to "normalize" out anything important.
A same-size print comparison, however, perhaps repeated for several print sizes, seems like a good idea most of the time.
By the way, I'm not aware of any normalization system attempting "same sharpness", and I can't see how it could possibly work; you've made me curious. Could you elaborate? Thanks.

Last edited by Kunzite; 01-01-2016 at 12:30 PM.
01-01-2016, 12:24 PM   #184
Pentaxian
normhead's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Near Algonquin Park
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 25,525
QuoteQuote:
What kind of camera you can make use of using different type of output is a incompletely different discussion VS how to compare IQ on two different cameras. How does viewing images at 100% help in knowing what camera fulfills you need?
Come on, you didn't just say that did you really?

OK< then turn it around, until you've determined what output you want, how do you determine what you want for input?

You can't even see the quality of your images on the camera. That can only be done on an output device.
You don't even know what those numerical evaluations mean until you see the image on an output device.

A dng is just digital gobley gook until you put it on an output device, printer or screen. Until the output device, there is no image, you can't even have IQ. IQ….IMAGE quality.

NO IQ without an image, can we at least agree on that much?

Discussing dng quality without corresponding output from output devices, is like discussing quantum chemistry. It's all very interesting but it isn't useful real world information.


Last edited by normhead; 01-01-2016 at 12:39 PM.
01-01-2016, 12:28 PM   #185
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,317
^^ "That is the issue of all these discussions. "

To me it comes down to to main courses of wasted keystrokes:

1. Argument about / discussion of 'professional' features on a Pentax camera is pointless because Pentax at this time does not provide a complete system of accessories and support. Great cameras and some fabulous lenses but not a broad, professional line.
2. I might buy the K-1, but if I do it will be for my reasons alone, not because it betters some competitor feature-for-feature. *


* I want a native K-mount camera that captures the image circle of the lenses I own. In that regard, a D610-equal is probably good enough. The advanced features a K-1 might offer will mostly be 'unused horsepower', similar to paying for a luxury sport sedan automobile instead of a Honda Accord. I might do it, but it isn't really rational.
01-01-2016, 12:37 PM   #186
Moderator
Tom S.'s Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: S.E. Michigan
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,239
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
2. I might buy the K-1, but if I do it will be for my reasons alone, not because it betters some competitor feature-for-feature.
Winner winner, chicken dinner!

Of course that should apply to the purchase of any item, but people get caught up in hype. With cameras, too many people suffer from the "it will make (or let) me take better pictures" hype. In reality, very few of us, myself included, push what we have to the limit.

My decision of whether to buy or not will be tempered by many things, all relative to me, not what other camera's have. Chief among my concerns is cost, followed closely by cost, and finally cost. But if rumors of a higher pixel APC-S prove true, it could have a major effect on my decision - depending of course on..... cost!
01-01-2016, 12:51 PM   #187
Site Supporter




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,964
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
^^ "That is the issue of all these discussions. "

To me it comes down to to main courses of wasted keystrokes:

1. Argument about / discussion of 'professional' features on a Pentax camera is pointless because Pentax at this time does not provide a complete system of accessories and support. Great cameras and some fabulous lenses but not a broad, professional line.
2. I might buy the K-1, but if I do it will be for my reasons alone, not because it betters some competitor feature-for-feature. *


* I want a native K-mount camera that captures the image circle of the lenses I own. In that regard, a D610-equal is probably good enough. The advanced features a K-1 might offer will mostly be 'unused horsepower', similar to paying for a luxury sport sedan automobile instead of a Honda Accord. I might do it, but it isn't really rational.
I find myself constantly evaluating my personal system: which component is the current weak-link, and what would be the cost, benefits of pushing it up to the next level.
01-01-2016, 01:07 PM   #188
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,317
QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Winner winner, chicken dinner!
Did you really just say that?

01-01-2016, 01:17 PM - 1 Like   #189
Pentaxian
Fogel70's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,741
QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Come on, you didn't just say that did you really?

OK< then turn it around, until you've determined what output you want, how do you determine what you want for input?

You can't even see the quality of your images on the camera. That can only be done on an output device.
You don't even know what those numerical evaluations mean until you see the image on an output device.

A dng is just digital gobley gook until you put it on an output device, printer or screen. Until the output device, there is no image, you can't even have IQ. IQ….IMAGE quality.

NO IQ without an image, can we at least agree on that much?

Discussing dng quality without corresponding output from output devices, is like discussing quantum chemistry. It's all very interesting but it doesn't mean anything in the real world.
There are lots of camera review sites where you can download test images to compare before you buy a new camera. Even though you normally don't print large or crop images, you might prefer to have the option to print large once in a while or have the option to heavily crop if needed.

The good thing is that there is usually very little penalty to get a camera that has better IQ than you might normally need.
You can benefit in the future by using a camera that are "overkill" in IQ. It's probably not long before 50+ inch 8K TV is the norm for viewing images so then you might be happier to have your old images saved in 24+ MP instead of 12- MP. And it's not only resolution that improves with higher pixel count. Higher rez images have finer noise which usually is less noticeable when viewing/printing images.

Using higher resolution sensor than you might need today is kind of like having images saved in RAW format.
You RAW images can benefit of future improvements in RAW processing software, and higher resolution can benefit from future upgrades/demand on your output quality.
01-01-2016, 02:55 PM   #190
Pentaxian




Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,325
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
By the way, I'm not aware of any normalization system attempting "same sharpness", and I can't see how it could possibly work; you've made me curious. Could you elaborate? Thanks.
I was referring to same sharpness in the depth of field. If you do not choose equivalent apertures, less stuff in a comparison-image is close enough to the focus plane to be acceptably sharp. That results in less parts of the image being sharp. Thus you use quite different images (oranges) to compare to the other images (apples).

But please remember I just used this to illustrate that all the comparison-mania hinges on the parameters chosen and there is no definitely "right" way to do it. We have no dictator around. It's all not science at all. It's opinion. Isn't that nice?
01-01-2016, 03:03 PM   #191
Moderator
Tom S.'s Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: S.E. Michigan
Photos: Albums
Posts: 4,239
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Did you really just say that?
What - you don't like chicken? I'm too poor for steak.
01-01-2016, 03:04 PM   #192
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,228
QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I was referring to same sharpness in the depth of field.
That's the confusing part. Where in the depth of field? Not on the focus plane? Or perhaps you are talking about DOF itself?
Even if you manage to get "DOF-equivalent" images with two separate cameras, it doesn't mean you get the same sharpness. Quite often you don't.

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
We have no dictator around. It's all not science at all. It's opinion. Isn't that nice?
Sure it is!
01-01-2016, 03:25 PM   #193
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,317
QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
What - you don't like chicken? I'm too poor for steak.
Winner Winner Chicken Dinner
"The legend tells that years ago every casino in Las Vegas had a three-piece chicken dinner with a potato and a veggie for $1.79. A standard bet back then was $2, hence when you won a bet you had enough for a chicken dinner. !”
01-01-2016, 03:30 PM   #194
Site Supporter
colonel00's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Shawnee, KS
Posts: 468
Hmm, I always heard it was from David Hasselhoff
01-01-2016, 09:41 PM   #195
Pentaxian
Fogel70's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,741
QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
I was referring to same sharpness in the depth of field. If you do not choose equivalent apertures, less stuff in a comparison-image is close enough to the focus plane to be acceptably sharp. That results in less parts of the image being sharp. Thus you use quite different images (oranges) to compare to the other images (apples).

But please remember I just used this to illustrate that all the comparison-mania hinges on the parameters chosen and there is no definitely "right" way to do it. We have no dictator around. It's all not science at all. It's opinion. Isn't that nice?
If you want to compare max resolution between cameras, you probably want to use the aperture that has maximum sharpness on the lens used.This can lead to using wider aperture on cameras with smaller sensors. It will depend on the pixel size on the cameras tested and lens used, but as smaller sensors tend to have smaller pixels it can lead to images get diffraction limited on wider apertures for smaller sensors.
I believe it's usually more important to choose the ideal aperture for max sharpness for each camera rather that to use the same DOF for all cameras when shooting test charts.

Of course for us hobbyists it's not always possible to test cameras in ideal conditions, so we might need to make some compromises in our tests. But this might also lead to our test get skewed as the conditions favors one camera over the next. Which makes it difficult to draw the correct conclusion of the tests we perform.

Last edited by Fogel70; 01-02-2016 at 12:28 AM.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
adventure, aps-c, buffer, camera, cameras, crop, crop mode, da lenses, dx, ff, ff sensors, frame, guys, image, images, k1 pics, lenses, light, mode, mp, pentax news, pentax rumors, post, range, sensor, sensors, shutter, sports
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Which of the K1* bodies works best with M-lenses? gavinhw Pentax DSLR Discussion 15 02-27-2016 01:02 PM
D FA lens with full performance on new K1? Uncle Pete Pentax Full Frame 15 12-17-2015 05:25 AM
Difference in writing time between shooting with DA lenses and K lenses pirivirus Pentax K-5 6 04-08-2013 06:18 PM
News Two new smc Pentax-DA* lenses added to the Lens Review Database Update Ole Site Suggestions and Help 2 12-13-2008 09:25 PM
First Pics with New DA 50-200 CDP Post Your Photos! 4 05-21-2007 05:25 AM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:32 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top