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07-12-2008, 12:08 PM   #16
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But then if it didn't have any LiveView, people would have even more complain anyway.

I think the reason is fairly simple: Pentax had limited funds since Hoya has probably nothing in the development of the K20D and had to use the same body for cost purposes.

WIthout changing the body there was not even chance on using additional sensor like Sony and developing AF for LiveView isn't like claping in their hands. They did the max they could givne the available ressources which is nice IMO.

Next, lets implement it fully. That's it.

07-14-2008, 04:40 AM   #17
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My main complaint about Live View on the K20D is where it's activated from. I use DoF preview a lot and lose this functionality if I also want to use Live View, or have to muck about in the custom settings every time I want to switch. Why can't it be assigned to another button or in the Fn menu? It's not exactly something you'd want to use with your eye to the viewfinder after all.

Nick
07-14-2008, 07:18 AM   #18
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QuoteOriginally posted by NickC Quote
My main complaint about Live View on the K20D is where it's activated from. I use DoF preview a lot and lose this functionality if I also want to use Live View, or have to muck about in the custom settings every time I want to switch. Why can't it be assigned to another button or in the Fn menu? It's not exactly something you'd want to use with your eye to the viewfinder after all.

Nick
Stupid indeed
07-19-2008, 10:20 AM   #19
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QuoteOriginally posted by gkopeliadis Quote
If makers could get rid of the SLR on the dSLR there would be great benefit in IQ.
I mean that the mirror dictates the last element of the lens to be some 5cm away from the sensor ( or film). That posses IQ problems to all lens up to 30-50mm, especially at the borders. Remember some large format wide angle lenses that needed the mirror to be locked up all times and had their own view finder? That was the problem they were addressing.
If you move the rear element closer to the film plane, then it creates a new set of problems, most notably vignetting, because the angle of the light hitting the sensor would be more oblique. Therefore doing away with the mirror will not solve any problems. A better solution is to use a fixed pellicle mirror. If the mirror does not swing up, then you can move the rear element closer, if necessary.

07-19-2008, 10:26 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Okami Quote
I really wish LiveView was left out of it :P I know it was put there for marketing reason but it really does suck
I agree with this ...actually Pentax beat all to the punch with their Digital Preview mode. However, I recognize this is not really the same as live view but it did offer some of the benefits.

I recently had a friend that stated he was buying a Sony because of the live view that he felt would allow him to better take sports (hockey) pictures. I think he is in for a surprise ...a good viewfinder will beat live view any day for that. ...Oh well, each to their own!

Mike.
07-19-2008, 10:41 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
But then if it didn't have any LiveView, people would have even more complain anyway.

I think the reason is fairly simple: Pentax had limited funds since Hoya has probably nothing in the development of the K20D and had to use the same body for cost purposes.

WIthout changing the body there was not even chance on using additional sensor like Sony and developing AF for LiveView isn't like claping in their hands. They did the max they could givne the available ressources which is nice IMO.

Next, lets implement it fully. That's it.
Complaints about live view is not new. Every camera maker has received its share of criticism about limited usefulness. The fact is that live view is a relatively new feature, so it takes time to develop. In time, more and more features will be added. It took ten years and several close approaches before man finally landed on the moon, so don't expect live view to become fully mature in its first appearance in a new camera.
07-19-2008, 12:06 PM   #22
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Never in the history of man have so many complained so much about something they don't have to use.
07-19-2008, 01:19 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Never in the history of man have so many complained so much about something they don't have to use.
I agree fully.

07-19-2008, 03:59 PM   #24
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Hi Anastigmat

Re your mistaken belief:

QuoteQuote:
It took ten years and several close approaches before man finally landed on the moon
I thought you would have realised by now that all this showbiz stuff actually takes place in a high-security film studio buried deep within Area 51 ! That fireworks show down at Cape Canaveral is purely put on to amuse visiting tourists. What's more, as a long term advocate of the flat-earth society, I'm surprised you haven't yet figured out what really happens to all those boats which mistakenly stray over the edge of the world in the vicinity of the Bermuda triangle.....LOL ?

Best regards
Richard
07-19-2008, 08:47 PM   #25
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Interesting to note some of those complaining about Live View in this thread aren't even using the K20D...

Admittedly LV may or may not be for everyone but if one doesn't even own or have a K20D, it is kinda hard to lend any credence to any comments of the supposed failings of LV on the K20D.

Personally I was initially wary of the benefits of LV but after using it firsthand, I have found it to be quite useful in certain photo taking situations. So I would say Pentax did the right thing incorporating it on the K20D.
07-19-2008, 08:59 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by Confused Quote
Hi creampuff

Re your point:



In fact I approve of Live View in all it's various manifestations and willingly admit that under certain circumstances, it clearly has undoubted applications.
However I'm afraid that I simply cannot hide my disappointment at the somewhat cack-handed manner in which Pentax's design team have chosen to implement this particular feature on the K20D.
Imitation is supposedly the sincerest form of flattery, but in my humble opinion their R&D department team need to radically redesign the next version of Live View for the forthcoming model.
In all honesty, competing manufacturers manage this so much better on even their cheaper ranges that the current situation is almost embarrassing ! Might I tactfully suggest that Pentax take on board how the opposition achieve this feat so successfully and simply follow suit as rapidly as possible !

Best regards
Richard
How specifically should Live View be implemented? Could you delve into specific details of how it ought to be done vis-a-vis how other manufacturers are implementing Live View (Olympus, Sony, Canon, etc.)?
eg. articulated LCD screen?

Without going into specifics, I'm afraid it is pointless to make generic comments that Pentax needs to improve LV. Improve in what area?
07-21-2008, 05:57 AM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Anastigmat Quote
If you move the rear element closer to the film plane, then it creates a new set of problems, most notably vignetting, because the angle of the light hitting the sensor would be more oblique. Therefore doing away with the mirror will not solve any problems. A better solution is to use a fixed pellicle mirror. If the mirror does not swing up, then you can move the rear element closer, if necessary.
The real advantage will be on wide angle lens. That said there is no way to have worse vigneting or anything if the lens manufacturer can, in its discretion, move the rear element as close to the sensor as is desirable…
Eliminating the mirror IS the holy grail of SLR manufacturers (contradiction in terms)
07-21-2008, 06:18 AM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Tom S. Quote
Never in the history of man have so many complained so much about something they don't have to use.
Absolutely!

07-21-2008, 10:16 AM   #29
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Hi creampuff

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you, due to a prior engagement. However, I think that Nick summed up the problem perfectly, when he said:

QuoteQuote:
My main complaint about Live View on the K20D is where it's activated from. I use DoF preview a lot and lose this functionality if I also want to use Live View, or have to muck about in the custom settings every time I want to switch. Why can't it be assigned to another button or in the Fn menu? It's not exactly something you'd want to use with your eye to the viewfinder after all.
Pentax K20D DSLR Digital SLR Review

QuoteQuote:
My only gripe about this feature is that to focus, the AF button must be held down. The mirror then clunks up, blocking the Live view and the camera focuses. Adding to the gripe is that the camera will focus whilst the AF button is depressed. It wont automatically stop or let you know it's focused. Likewise, if you only press the button briefly, the camera wont perform a full AF.
....and from another source:

QuoteQuote:
Most dSLR models have very poor live view implementations compared to a typical point and shoot model.**

For example, look at the display refresh rate while comparing cameras (which can cause delays and smearing when moving the camera to point at something different), as well as how the Autofocus works (most will have to flip the mirror out of the way to focus with the camera's main AF sensors, then return to live view, slowing down the AF process and making it difficult to follow a moving subject* Some models also allow the use of Contrast Detection AF via the main sensor which slows Autofocus down.
Admittedly, due to the nature of P&S designs, such cameras obviously don't have internal mirror mechanisms to contend with, but the poor implementation of Live View in the current K20D was one of the main reasons why I decided to hang onto my K10D's for the time being.

IMHO to be genuinely useful, Live View needs to be provided with a fully-articulating screen in the same manner that numerous P&S cameras do, cutting diametrically across the weather-sealed design ethos present in the current K10D/K20D bodies. If that particular problem could be successfully addressed, then I'd probably buy such a new Pentax camera without a moment's hesitation.

Best regards
Richard

Last edited by Confused; 07-21-2008 at 10:40 AM.
07-21-2008, 10:40 AM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by Confused Quote
Hi creampuff

Sorry it's taken a while to get back to you, due to a prior engagement. However, I think that Nick summed up the problem perfectly, when he said:



Pentax K20D DSLR Digital SLR Review



....and from another source:



Admittedly, due to the nature of P&S designs, such cameras obviously don't have internal mirror mechanisms to contend with, but the poor implementation of Live View in the current K20D was one of the main reasons why I decided to hang onto my K10D's for the time being.

IMHO to be genuinely useful, Live View needs to be provided with a fully-articulating screen in the same manner that numerous P&S cameras do, cutting diametrically across the weather-sealed design ethos present in the current K10D/K20D bodies. If that particular problem could be successfully addressed, then I'd probably buy such a Pentax camera without a moment's hesitation.

Best regards
Richard
There's always the zigview, personally too expensive though:
Zigview | S2 (Type B) Digital Angle Finder | S2B | B&H Photo
Hmmm.. just noticed it's not listing any K series as compatable, but it should be
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