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07-25-2008, 04:18 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Well ...

Zeiss, for instance, has recently introduced a 2,500,000:1 contrast DLP beamer for public projection applications. Or a ground breaking Helium Ion Microscope. Their AF lenses for Sony are also quite state of the art, I guess. I am sure Zeiss themselves considers offering their lenses in Nikon and Pentax mount to be a hobby to be continued as long as their MTF figures haven't been beaten yet. It isn't their business. Not anymore.
even more reason to not fall for such snobbery, why support a manufacturer that is only doing something out of hobby rather than trying to genuinly please the public.

one could think of it as being a waiter who gets to bring home some of the left overs from a banquet hosted for the worlds oligarchs.

07-25-2008, 04:23 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Well ...

Some companies are like this, especially some parts of old grown ones like Siemens etc.

However, many (old and new) middle sized companies (which are the backbone of German economy now) have withdrawn from producing end consumer goods (leaving this market to Asia) and now are leaders in high end specialized goods. Serving them in a very customer-oriented manner.

Zeiss, for instance, has recently introduced a 2,500,000:1 contrast DLP beamer for public projection applications. Or a ground breaking Helium Ion Microscope. Their AF lenses for Sony are also quite state of the art, I guess. I am sure Zeiss themselves considers offering their lenses in Nikon and Pentax mount to be a hobby to be continued as long as their MTF figures haven't been beaten yet. It isn't their business. Not anymore. And we'll see how the Japanese optical industry will survive after China has ramped up theirs.

If you pay them, Zeiss will actually build everything as long as it is physically possible. Like the Apo Sonnar T* 4/1700: Super Tele Lens .

Gooshin, you may want to talk to them about your wishes
Falconeye,

I sincerely hope that it was well understood that I didn't generalise but related to more of a "personal" experience with an "old big german company". And to make a bit of light into this I can tell you that I am talking about the aftermath of the Vodafone's buyout of Mannesmann group (with its management's help) for its telecom business and then the dissolution of the industrial part composed of many very well known companies (VDO, Demag, Rexroth among many others) sold without mercy to Siemens, Bosch, whomever. For CZ I guess it's more a decission of not becoming more mainstream since they have many sources of revenue (the major one being the partnership with Sony, I guess) and facing potential recession.

Radu
07-25-2008, 04:24 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
even more reason to not fall for such snobbery, why support a manufacturer that is only doing something out of hobby rather than trying to genuinly please the public.

one could think of it as being a waiter who gets to bring home some of the left overs from a banquet hosted for the worlds oligarchs.

I really don't know what bee you got in your bonnet, but these are quality optics made for the enthusiasts built after exacting standards. The are obviously not for everyone. The last the world need more of are more third party, pedestrian optics. The fact that you don't want these lenses or can't afford them or whatever, is really not of much interest. Buy your lenses from someone else that fits your fancy....
07-26-2008, 04:54 AM   #64
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I thought Carl Zeiss just made lenses for Sony.. Zeiss lenses are good quality, so if this lense is cheaper than the Pentax lenses is would be interesting. But 18mm for a wide angle.. not really wide, but I think the quality would be better than my 18-55 kitlens (not in specs)

07-26-2008, 05:48 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
the mentioned Carl Zeiss lenses are designed and manufactured by Cosina in Japan
They are designed (a long time ago) and quality-controlled by Zeiss. Manufactured by Cosina. Zeiss themseves are proud of this, saying that this preserves availability of their great glass for a wider audience as would have been possible otherwise.

If you look up photozone.de and compare prime lenses, you'll see that only one Pentax glass is on par: the FA 31 Ltd.

(I've written a script making the resolution values somewhat sensor-resolution independent (providing for cross-system comparisons) and this is my result). I also found that the Zeiss lens for Sony and Nikon/Pentax have the same optical quality.

If Zeiss wouldn't do what they do, their optical formula would be lost for the photographic world. I'm pretty sure that they aren't doing it primarily for commercial reasons. The income from this is marginal for them.

Last edited by falconeye; 07-27-2008 at 05:20 AM. Reason: made clear that I compare prime lenses only
07-26-2008, 08:00 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Serpiente Quote
I thought Carl Zeiss just made lenses for Sony.. Zeiss lenses are good quality, so if this lense is cheaper than the Pentax lenses is would be interesting. But 18mm for a wide angle.. not really wide, but I think the quality would be better than my 18-55 kitlens (not in specs)
the CZ lenses for sony are definitely NOT cheaper than anything Pentax offers. the CZ 24-70 f/2.8 is 1749 USD. but then again, it supposedly rivals the best from canon and nikon, in optical quality..
07-26-2008, 09:04 PM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by OniFactor Quote
the CZ lenses for sony are definitely NOT cheaper than anything Pentax offers. the CZ 24-70 f/2.8 is 1749 USD. but then again, it supposedly rivals the best from canon and nikon, in optical quality..
One could say that Pentax lenses rival Canon and Nikon as well. All the systems have their dogs, and all have their quirks in the lens lineup.
07-27-2008, 06:27 AM   #68
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Carl Zeiss...

Zeiss is so much a thing of the past (in our heads) that I actually decided to google a bit what they really do nowadays...

These are my findings.

First, to put things into perspective, let me put the Pentax figures onto the table first (all numbers in Million Euros, M):

Pentax (part of Hoya): 242 M turnover in the quarter ending March 31. So, let's say, roughly (with 4th quarter assumed to be stronger):
Pentax turnover: 1,200 M
Pentax R&D: 45 M (roughly)
Pentax employees: 5,885
[source: Hoya report, incl. Imaging and Medical etc.]


Now, the same for Zeiss:
Zeiss AG turnover: 2,600 M , split into:
Medical: 638 M
Microscopy: 323 M
Semiconductor: 1,042 M
Industrial Measurement Technology: 316 M
Optical/Optronics incl.
1.Optronics
2.Photo and Movie lenses
3.Planetaria
4.Scopes and Binoculars
Sum of 1.-4.: 245 M
Vision (eye lenses): 844 M (partial contribution)

Employees: 12,257
Zeiss R&D: 290 M
Employees in R&D: 1935
Patents per year: 384

Public company with stock fully owned by Carl Zeiss Foundation.


I would say that this profile doesn't exactly qualify for what Gooshin would call a company of the past.

If I divide Optical/Optronics by four, and give 50% to photo lenses, and 80% which of to Sony, I am left with ~5 M for ordinary SLR lenses (e.g., 10,000 at 500 each -- probably still too high). So, let's say 2.6 M This is exactly 0.1% of Zeiss turnover.

So, my guess that the Zeiss glass business we are talking about (0.1% revenue) is a Zeiss hobbyist business indeed. I am glad they find the time to actually do it. I would welcome they make AF for all mounts, but then again...

On another note, Zeiss seems to be about twice as big as Pentax.

07-27-2008, 09:32 PM   #69
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this is price CZ lens for Sony DSLR camera. they never will be cheap as pentax lenses

1-4
photo
Carl Zeiss - Vario-Sonnar T* DT 16-80 F3.5-4.5


Product code: SAL-1680CZ Current

aperture: 3.5–4.5/22-29


user ratings: 4,57


699,00 USD

699,00 USD

focal range: 16 - 80 mm


total: 68 reviews

weight:440 g


Add your review

photo
Carl Zeiss - Vario-Sonnar T* 24-70 F2.8 ZA SSM


Product code: SAL-2470Z Current

aperture: 2.8/22


user ratings: 4,87


1.749,00 USD

focal range: 24 - 70 mm


total: 18 reviews

weight:955 g


Add your review
photo
Carl Zeiss - Planar T* 85 F1.4


Product code: SAL-85F14CZ Current

aperture: 1.4/22


user ratings: 4,89


1.299,00 USD

1.299,00 USD

focal range: 85 mm


total: 18 reviews

weight:640 g


Add your review
photo
Carl Zeiss - Sonnar T* 135 F1.8


Product code: SAL-135F18CZ Current

aperture: 1.8/22


user ratings: 4,93


1.399,00 USD

1.399,00 USD

focal range: 135 mm


total: 23 reviews

weight:1050 g


Add your review
07-28-2008, 04:09 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by dstar Quote
Carl Zeiss - Planar T* 85 F1.4
Product code: SAL-85F14CZ Current
aperture: 1.4/22
user ratings: 4,89
1.299,00 USD
focal range: 85 mm
total: 18 reviews
weight:640 g
This looks like Amazon or Adorama. Their price for this lens in Nikon (or Pentax) mount (no AF screw, though. but with A aperture for Pentax), is:
1.033,20 USD
which is 20% cheaper. 10% for the more modern Sony look and 10% for the AF screw
07-28-2008, 11:37 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
They are designed (a long time ago) and quality-controlled by Zeiss. Manufactured by Cosina. Zeiss themseves are proud of this, saying that this preserves availability of their great glass for a wider audience as would have been possible otherwise.
As I've read in bits and pieces over the 'net, Cosina hand builds lenses in a rural Japanese factory and pride themselves on timeless quality. It was amazing to me that their efforts in reproducing original Voigtlander formulas could originally be had for so little given the effort involved in producing them.

While I can only speculate on the partnership of Zeiss and Cosina, I feel comfortable to assume that the quality and success of these Voigtlander lenses was of interest to Zeiss. Whether it was Cosina approaching Zeiss or vice-versa, I can only attest to the final result. If you've ever used an old Takumar with the metal focus ring that travelled like it was gliding on butter, then you'll have an idea of how Cosina still make their lenses today.

It stands to reason the Cosina Zeiss glass costs more as two companies are now involved in the process between design, manufacture and QC (and profit sharing), but the available Voigtlanders still truely represent a bargain at new prices. One need only look over at ebay for the prices people are actually willing to pay for lenses made to this level of quality once they are out of production.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye:
If you look up photozone.de and compare prime lenses, you'll see that only one Pentax glass is on par: the FA 31 Ltd.
I'm gaining experience with the VLs, ZKs and FAs and in my experience the 31 is really impressive at infinity. It put the first copy of my T*25 to shame (and allowed me to be much happier with a replacement copy).
QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye:
If Zeiss wouldn't do what they do, their optical formula would be lost for the photographic world. I'm pretty sure that they aren't doing it primarily for commercial reasons. The income from this is marginal for them.
As Zeiss had put it (perhaps on their page I don't immediately recall) most 85s follow their original Planar optical example and are only variants. This could perhaps explain the relative cost/performance of 85's by and large.

This world is filled with mass produced, cost effective, market driven product that cuts corners to get a bang for buck ratio out the door into your camera bag. Igladly pay the double prices for a piece of quality craftsmanship that makes me feel joy just to use it. I applaud Zeiss, Cosina and everyone who gets this by supporting their efforts, its only in this way will it be worth it for these companies to continue to reproduce these timeless artifacts for our enjoyment.
07-28-2008, 03:53 PM   #72
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The Sony version of Carl Zeiss lenses are more expensive because of AF. The Sony ZA series has the electrical contacts, ROM-IC, and distance encoder. The Carl Zeiss lenses for Pentax and Nikon mount are not AF.

Also the Sony α Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/85mm ZA is not the same design as the Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/85mm ZF/ZS series.

As is usually the case, Sony's lens prices are ridiculously high.
07-28-2008, 04:19 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
The Sony version of Carl Zeiss lenses are more expensive because of AF. The Sony ZA series has the electrical contacts, ROM-IC, and distance encoder. The Carl Zeiss lenses for Pentax and Nikon mount are not AF.

Also the Sony α Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/85mm ZA is not the same design as the Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/85mm ZF/ZS series.

As is usually the case, Sony's lens prices are ridiculously high.
yes and no. the CZ and the 70-200ssm lens are high priced, because they are premium lenses. but the other G lenses, namely the 70-300G is reasonably priced to compete with the 70-200f/4 lenses from canon. the consumer level lenses are honestly fairly on par with the rest of the market, as well
07-28-2008, 04:41 PM   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by OniFactor Quote
yes and no. the CZ and the 70-200ssm lens are high priced, because they are premium lenses. but the other G lenses, namely the 70-300G is reasonably priced to compete with the 70-200f/4 lenses from canon. the consumer level lenses are honestly fairly on par with the rest of the market, as well
I'd have to disagree with you on this, try comparing the price of a Sony 50mm f/1.4 for example. With a few exceptions, Sony's lens prices are definitely not on par with similar offerings from other companies.
07-29-2008, 03:07 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by creampuff Quote
Also the Sony α Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/85mm ZA is not the same design as the Carl Zeiss Planar T* 1.4/85mm ZF/ZS series.
You are right. Thank You for pointing this out.
Planar T* 1,4/85 ZA
Focal length 85 mm
Aperture range f/1.4 f/22
Focusing range 0.85 m infinite
Number of elements/groups 8/7
Angular field 35 mm/ APS-C 29 / 19
Filter thread M72 x 0,75
Dimensions (with caps) 81.5 mm diameter, length 75.0 mm
Weight (without caps) 640 g

Planar T* 1,4/85 ZF/ZK
Focal length 85 mm
Aperture range f/1,4 f/16 (1/2 steps)
Focusing range 1 m infinity
Number of elements/groups 6/5
Angular field, diag./horiz. 28.6/24
Coverage at close range 24 x 36 cm
Filter thread M 72 x 0.75
Dimensions (with caps) 77 mm, length 85 mm
Weight 600 g
Camera mounts F Mount (ZF), K Mount (ZK)
The Sony version has two more lens elements and is heavier!
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