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08-10-2008, 12:26 PM   #91
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Slow?
I think you did not realize tat speed is not a factor when considerong Zeiss lenses.
Build quality as well as excellent optical quality are.

Now if prefer to brag with your shiny fast and soft lenses, up to you...

08-10-2008, 01:16 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Slow?
I think you did not realize tat speed is not a factor when considerong Zeiss lenses.
Build quality as well as excellent optical quality are.

Now if prefer to brag with your shiny fast and soft lenses, up to you...
I was considering Zeiss lenses, the 20mm Flektogon compared to the new 18mm. In low light situations, speed is a factor regardless of whether its Zeiss, Nikkor, Pentax, Canon etc. I appreciate optical quality above all else, but speed kills.
08-10-2008, 03:27 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
I'd like to see the FF camera when it comes out and the compliment of lenses that Pentax brings with it. Hell, it may not even support MF pka lenses. Then anyone with a $1000 or > manual focus lens bought in anticipation of it would be a goat. Pentax is no longer an across the board "legacy" compliant platform.

I never said there was anything wrong with using Zeiss on the current Pentax line-up and vintage film cameras but buying them for a camera that doesn't exist yet is just "funny" to me since we are talking about a company that some think is on borrowed time.

Edit: and what I was getting at with the Zeiss 18mm is that it is pretty damned slow for the money when compared to:
Yeah, can't see myself buying the 18 either, at least on paper. Even if it were great, for me it overlaps too closely the 25, but slower and without close focus. I'll try it though if my local retailer will carry it and post what the heck is the deal.

As for the borrowed time thought, it may be true for Pentax (although seemingly more unlikely these days) but its probably not true for Samsung. I invested conciously in the K-mount. Its win-win for me even without a FF camera though, there still is no better lenses for doing what I do than these aside from some classic A*'s - but condition and price are questions there. Its gravy on the cake that I'll be able to continue to use my chosen tools on my chosen format in not-to-distant-future and well beyond, though I would never eat a cake with gravy on it.

Future Pentax FF lenses are still going to be SDM, AF with cost saving measures. Its not a knock just to knock it, its just the way it is. I love the K20, and I'd be curious to see how the new breed of SDM actually feels in MF use though and how generous the throws are considering the AF speed race. I don't see the goat thing though... hey, I would be ecstatic if Pentax would do a rerun of some A* classics for those willing to pay the premium for timeless quality and damped, precise manual helicoid focusing but only Cosina seems to be on that tip right now - and I'm all over it. I've strongly considered buying the NIB A50/1.2 at Matsuya, but the Voigtlander 58 was $200 less.

Ummm.. . what are we talking about again? Was it just the 18? Damn. I was rolling.
08-10-2008, 06:18 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by MRRiley Quote
First off.... 18MM isnt "super-wide angle" on an APS-C Digital SLR. heck its not even really "super-wide" on a 35mm camera...

and second... f3.8 is unremarkable on an 18mm lens and f5.6 is rather abysmal for 125mm...

I agree with Gooshin. These are rather ho-hum lenses. We don't need more of the same lenses just made by different companies. We need faster primes in extreme focal lengths (wide & tele) and more and faster constant aperture zooms.
Agreed...More useless ''new'' lenses...

08-10-2008, 09:50 PM   #95
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What's with this obsession with ever faster lenses?
The main reason for you to consider a Zeiss lens would be if you want a well build lens with excellent resolution.
There was a need for a 28mm Distagon on "full frame", the 18mm still serves that same purpose now, and would be ultra-wide once you shoot film or get a full frame dslr from Pentax.

The Sigma may be "just another one of the same", a 18-125 may proof to be better than a 18-250 in the end....

To throw both of them in the same bag and call them ho-hum because you see no benefit is extremly narrow minded.

Did i pick up the 50/1.4 ZK? no, my budget dictated a VL 58/1.4, that doesn't mean the 50/1.4 is not worth it to those who can afford it o_O
08-11-2008, 03:38 PM   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by morfic Quote
. . .
Did i pick up the 50/1.4 ZK? no, my budget dictated a VL 58/1.4, that doesn't mean the 50/1.4 is not worth it to those who can afford it o_O
Both of those are fast and well made with very good optics. I wouldn't call it an obsession with speed but for $1400 I would expect it to at least be either AF or at least 2.8. I would expect the Distagon to be at least on par with the vintage Zeiss had a f2.8 20mm lens (Zeiss Flektogon). I mean really, 3.5 in that price range? I still say its not 6-700 dollars better than the DA 14mm which is faster and AF. Hell, the glass blanks may even come from the same place . . . Hoya. I think the Distagon is made in the Cosina plant that was building the Voightlander lenses. The SMC coating has to count for something.

Edit: Here are some samples from the Flektogon 20mm f2.8:http://www.pbase.com/kkawakami/czj_flektogon_20mmf28
08-11-2008, 04:45 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
Both of those are fast and well made with very good optics. I wouldn't call it an obsession with speed but for $1400 I would expect it to at least be either AF or at least 2.8. I would expect the Distagon to be at least on par with the vintage Zeiss had a f2.8 20mm lens (Zeiss Flektogon). I mean really, 3.5 in that price range? I still say its not 6-700 dollars better than the DA 14mm which is faster and AF. Hell, the glass blanks may even come from the same place . . . Hoya. I think the Distagon is made in the Cosina plant that was building the Voightlander lenses. The SMC coating has to count for something.

Edit: Here are some samples from the Flektogon 20mm f2.8:CZJ MC Flektogon 20mm F2.8 (M42 mount) Photo Gallery by koji kawakami at pbase.com
All the ZF and ZK lenses are made by cosina in Japan.
But everything else is zeiss.

When I was told a new UWA lens from Zeiss were in the making I was secretly praying for it to be the Distagon 21mm f2.8 and thus a bit dissapointed as the 18m focal range is a little less appealing to me.

I am still hoping that I one day will see the Distagon 21mm reintroduced in the ZF/ZK line some day...

My guess is that you will find quite a few landscape photographers (even portrait and street photographers) preferring manual focus over Autofocus.
Having a manufacturer that caters this segment of the market is something I for one appreciate.
I think the zeiss lenses are priced very fair, no they are not cheap, but top of the line quality (both in construction, operation and optics) rarely is.

Why is it so bad to have the choice?
08-12-2008, 07:27 AM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Blue Quote
...I wouldn't call it an obsession with speed but for $1400 I would expect it to at least be either AF or at least 2.8...
You keep missing the point Blue! People pay extra to NOT have auto-focus! AF lens have comprimised manual focus handling to support the gear shaft and faster AF speeds (hence short, less precise throws) Native AF lenses are harder to focus with manually than native manual focus lenses - its simple. These Cosina builds have the best feeling, damped, manual focusing helicoid action that I can currently buy for my camera. It doesn't hurt they are built like tanks and perform so well either, but its twice you've said something about no AF when its clearly not the point of these lenses! There are a lot of other people who don't need/want/care about AF!

08-12-2008, 09:44 AM   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by morfic Quote
What's with this obsession with ever faster lenses?
because in todays world a point and shoot can be configured both in studio setup and in daylight to produce images on par if not indistinguishable from those of expensive DSLR cameras.

especially for 1200X1000 resolutions and lower

even 8X10 prints one would be hardpressed to see the difference

viewing images at 1X1 pixels, while informative, is pointless, since no one does it in real life.

you do not walk up to a poster and look at it from 2 inches awaway.


the only way left to differentiate your SLR work from point and shoots is creative depth of field control, and excel at night shots, both of which require fast glass.

F3.5 on an 18 mm means a very short hyperfocal distance, unless you're shooting someone 5 or 6 feet away from you, you might as well be using a point and shoot.
08-12-2008, 09:53 AM   #100
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
because in todays world a point and shoot can be configured both in studio setup and in daylight to produce images on par if not indistinguishable from those of expensive DSLR cameras.

especially for 1200X1000 resolutions and lower

even 8X10 prints one would be hardpressed to see the difference

viewing images at 1X1 pixels, while informative, is pointless, since no one does it in real life.

you do not walk up to a poster and look at it from 2 inches awaway.


the only way left to differentiate your SLR work from point and shoots is creative depth of field control, and excel at night shots, both of which require fast glass.

F3.5 on an 18 mm means a very short hyperfocal distance, unless you're shooting someone 5 or 6 feet away from you, you might as well be using a point and shoot.
Goos. I gotta say, I love reading your posts. Another good one here.
08-12-2008, 10:16 AM   #101
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
because in todays world a point and shoot can be configured both in studio setup and in daylight to produce images on par if not indistinguishable from those of expensive DSLR cameras.

especially for 1200X1000 resolutions and lower

even 8X10 prints one would be hardpressed to see the difference

viewing images at 1X1 pixels, while informative, is pointless, since no one does it in real life.

you do not walk up to a poster and look at it from 2 inches awaway.


the only way left to differentiate your SLR work from point and shoots is creative depth of field control, and excel at night shots, both of which require fast glass.

F3.5 on an 18 mm means a very short hyperfocal distance, unless you're shooting someone 5 or 6 feet away from you, you might as well be using a point and shoot.
Ok, you got me, if you limit your thinking to web images and small prints, then the lens has nothing to offer for you.
My point is that most negative replies sound a lot like "It does not work for what I am looking for, therefore it's a dumb idea and a crap lens for everyone."
If you are looking for fast lenses for DoF control you will not be interested in corner to corner performance and can look at what other companies have to offer there.
08-12-2008, 10:28 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by morfic Quote
Ok, you got me, if you limit your thinking to web images and small prints, then the lens has nothing to offer for you.
My point is that most negative replies sound a lot like "It does not work for what I am looking for, therefore it's a dumb idea and a crap lens for everyone."
If you are looking for fast lenses for DoF control you will not be interested in corner to corner performance and can look at what other companies have to offer there.
okay please describe a situation and end product (work/art) in which a F3.5 18mm lens will be superior to anything else on the market.
08-12-2008, 10:39 AM   #103
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
okay please describe a situation and end product (work/art) in which a F3.5 18mm lens will be superior to anything else on the market.
Fidn a P&S which will show the same optical quality, we will see then.
08-12-2008, 10:47 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Fidn a P&S which will show the same optical quality, we will see then.
take a canon G9 and go photograph the rocky mountains in RAW in broad daylight

then do whatever you want with your Ziess lens, hell, mount it on a 5D for all i care.

on a computer screen, you wont be able to tell the different

on a 5X7 photo, you wont be able to tell the difference

on an 8X10, you MAAAYYYYY be able to tell the difference

only at about poster size will you be able to start telling a difference, and thats if you bring it up to your face. (or do 1X1 pixel peeping)


modern Point and Shoots suck ass when you want to do low light no flash, macro, or shallow DOF.

wide/normal angle shots done at hyperfocal distance produce almost indistinguishable results compared to SLR.
08-12-2008, 10:50 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gooshin Quote
okay please describe a situation and end product (work/art) in which a F3.5 18mm lens will be superior to anything else on the market.
You do realize this all comes down to choice and taste, a very subjective matter where superiority is not going to be quantified in a unit of measure that would be acceptable to you. Some people end up owning more than one MF lens of the same focal length and aperture, because they appreciate their differences and use them based on their moods/a whim.
Above it was already mentioned that the feel of a quality MF lens alone is worth a lot to probably the majority of people that ARE interested in such a lens.
Don't get me wrong if VL came out with a 18/3.5 KA lens i would be much happier, since it would come into a realm of affordability for *me*, that does not mean that noone would any longer choose a Zeiss 18/3.5 for the same landscape/architectural work i would be using a VL 18/3.5 for.

Many would probably say "screw ZK/KA, i need no KA, i grab a Pentax mount for a CZ MM Lens from leitax.com and mount me a Distagon 21/2.8, stop it down and am as happy as a snow king using it on my Super Program and K20D"
I already understood there is nothing in this lens for you, i understand nothing i can say will make you understand that i say a lens that is not for you may be for others, and i still say we should all be happy for any company making any lens that is for someone and can be used on a Pentax.
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