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07-20-2016, 09:43 AM   #1546
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
That's true in theory, false in practice.

That's because the "workflow" has to deal with 4x the data and has to guess which pixels did change.

The immense success of the Bayer pattern has to do with its efficient "workflow", needing much less original data for the same perceived image quality.

The real merit of pixel-shift is an absolute better image quality at the pixel-level than a single capture with a Bayer filter could provide. For me, it may mean more fun at post-processing at 100% view.

I think workflow is a very badly chosen word, IMO. In our current processing power, the Bayer pattern compared to a shift pattern should a detail.

I do not understand how an 'OK accommodation' (and reasonable, really) has to take the precedence over a full information way of doing things... Except accommodation based on processing power. But are those still relevant? I don't think so.

You used to be aimed at best possible scenarioes and it seems you drifted to easier scenario. What happened to you?

07-21-2016, 05:14 AM   #1547
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I must have forgotten that, don't hesitate to show me... I must have some memory issues
here it is :

"That may sound stupid, but that a reason for me to not buy that K1. "


Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/190-pentax-k-1/325411-pentax-k-1-continuo...#ixzz4F2oQpo1x

Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-21-2016 at 06:43 AM.
07-21-2016, 11:28 AM   #1548
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Zygonyx why are you unable to quote/read the complete message?

You said: "Best of all, Nicolas wrote somewhere he wasn't interested in K-1 anymore because of weak AF performance in the wake of DPR's highly reliable bike-test. "

The post:
QuoteQuote:
Completely ignoring the dpreview review and only looking at the schema and your explanation, this AF design is a huge issue for me.
[...]
Overall APSC bodies are much better for that as well as mirorless bodies.

That may sound stupid, but that a reason for me to not buy that K1.
I am the guy that is arguing, but many here change things to their liking so they can go after the others...
07-21-2016, 02:20 PM   #1549
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Sometimes is not good to be right when people like to be right. So if you are right they dont like you, but if you are wrong they like you, or if you let it go they also like. The answer is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%27m_OK_%E2%80%93_You%27re_OK#The_Parent.2C_A...P-A-C.29_model

07-21-2016, 10:44 PM   #1550
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Sorry for having somehow modified your prose nicolas.
Basically, i meant that despite your stated position, you carry on arguing the way others have described.
For the rest, i have since a long time ignored too long arguing posts.
I prefer short and informative content : no time to loose / better take pictures.
And in that respect, i only advice you to try K-1 by yourself...
It might stop some of your arguments.
07-22-2016, 03:04 PM   #1551
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Sorry for having somehow modified your prose nicolas.
Basically, i meant that despite your stated position, you carry on arguing the way others have described.
For the rest, i have since a long time ignored too long arguing posts.
I prefer short and informative content : no time to loose / better take pictures.
And in that respect, i only advice you to try K-1 by yourself...
It might stop some of your arguments.
Sure but again, as to many that have tried... I think K1 fantastic piece of gear. maybe the best for some use (outdoor/landscape use) but this doesn't mean I would enjoy it. I don't feel I need that many megapixels, I don't feel enough need of high iso performance and I an somewhat sensitive to the size of the package.

Basically either I give up quality go m4/3 or something like that, either I updgrade FF to get something bigger and higher quality or I stay where I am, because it is not that bad, all the contrary. I have all the time to wait for potentially improved WA prime and if I was to upgrade, an FF mirorless that would be half the size of K1.

Even if I wanted K1, I'd wait 2 years so it would cost more like 1000€ than 2000 and the missing less like a 24mm prime would be available.

But this is not because I do not plan for K1 that I think it bad, useless, not worth it in general or on the contrary the best ever. It is great camera. Best at some thing, good at other things... And counter productive for some needs (for example lightweight setup). That's just how it is.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 07-22-2016 at 03:45 PM. Reason: Edited minor vulgarity
07-25-2016, 11:26 AM   #1552
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I think workflow is a very badly chosen word, IMO. [...]
You used to be aimed at best possible scenarioes and it seems you drifted to easier scenario. What happened to you?

Actually, I am always in favour of "the best possible".

I only answered to a post which introduced "workflow" into the discussion. And information theory tells us that workflow (data efficiency) is the biggest argument in favor of Bayer, not against it. I only wanted to explain that simple fact.

Of course, I would prefer full color information at every pixel. Unfortunately, such technology does not exist yet. Foveon has noise, pixel shift has temporal blur.

And between 4x resolution and full color information, I choose 4x resolution.
07-25-2016, 12:37 PM   #1553
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
And between 4x resolution and full color information, I choose 4x resolution.
No sure if 4x the resolution is better than 1x true color, simply due to the limited bandwidth of the optics in front of the sensor. However, for a given sensor resolution such as 36Mp of the K1 (or D810), pixels shift is cheap to implement, and brings slightly better sharpness and color, at the expense of requiring a steady image. What users are complaining about is the processing of raw files with third party software. Since the K1 already includes in camera processing of pixel shifted images with or without motion correction when JPEG is chosen, if I was Ricoh, I'd simply output a raw file option instead of a JPEG, problem solved.

07-25-2016, 11:16 PM   #1554
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
No sure if 4x the resolution is better than 1x true color, simply due to the limited bandwidth of the optics in front of the sensor. However, for a given sensor resolution such as 36Mp of the K1 (or D810), pixels shift is cheap to implement, and brings slightly better sharpness and color, at the expense of requiring a steady image. What users are complaining about is the processing of raw files with third party software. Since the K1 already includes in camera processing of pixel shifted images with or without motion correction when JPEG is chosen, if I was Ricoh, I'd simply output a raw file option instead of a JPEG, problem solved.
I agree that Pentax could provide the option to export as an already demoised 16bit DNG or tiff so that you don't need any special software to work with it. Like they could use the HDR format used by several HDR tools with 32bit per pixel as an option when shooting in body HDR...

That should be easy, but I never heard of a camera manufacturer having such options?

To me that could be just an option menu:
- when shooting HDR save as either: JPEG / RAW / JPEG + RAW / 32 bit HDR
- when shooting pixel shift save as either: JPEG / PEF RAW / DNG RAW, 16 bit already demoised DNG, 16 bit tiff.

Once they provide 16 bit raw as standard, tiff but also 32 bit HDR, they can also extend pixel shift for more shots to increase futher the dynamic range. 16 shots would provide better color information, more sharpness but also 2EV of dynamic range... Maybe combine pixel shift and HDR in an automated shoot, so you would a 32bit file, with 20+ EV dynamic range and pixel shift sharpness...

They have at least to ensure lightroom provide support of their output. i think that's the enabler and that's why bayer has still a better workflow: it is standard an work everywhere. To promote pixel shift and alike, you need to change that.

Pentax would not be alone. There EXR from Fuji or foveon from Sigma. Bayer being the norm and raw being the norm for advanced post processing mean you can't have anything but a standard sensor with standard bayer system if you want full support for tooling. You can't say have a custom primary color filter, or shift the colors pattern, or use different technology. This draw us back ;(

Last edited by Nicolas06; 07-25-2016 at 11:27 PM.
07-26-2016, 02:31 AM   #1555
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What I'm after the most is automatic in-camera focus stacking in RAW, more than anything. Love macro, hate macro rails.

Olympus do this in the EM-1, it was introduced in a firmware update, although I believe it's semi-automatic and JPEG only.
07-26-2016, 02:39 AM   #1556
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
16 bit already demoised DNG, 16 bit tiff.
Falk's statement led me to rethink about it.

DNG is supposed to undergo classic bayer demosaicing by existing pp software, if so, I don't see how you could use a DNG that is already demosaiced as it wouldn't comply with mainstream workflows. However, Pentax specific pixel shift algorithm with / without MC, are already available in the K1, so you can exports into a TIFF but.... unfortunately, it was already stated that this TIFF is 8bits deep. Ricoh should implement a 16bits TIFF via firmware update, or upsampled JPEG = 144Mpixels large option. Anyway, you could argue about the file size, but the pixel shifted raw are already as large as 144Mpixels files, IMO it's not an argument. Ricoh have to rethink about their approach of pixel shift for the workflow to be seamless for the end users.

---------- Post added 26-07-16 at 11:43 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
What I'm after the most is automatic in-camera focus stacking in RAW, more than anything. Love macro, hate macro rails.
Yes. I guess the issue for Ricoh is if they implementing some automated multishot technique in their cameras, the possibilities are unlimited (as soon as you are on tripod), but the amount of work for them is also unlimited. For example, you could think of automating bracketing to increase DR without image quality tradeoff (the camera could use the electronic shutter to take a first image and decide for a range of exposures and take two additional shots to combine them into one). Currently, you could ad a few automation sequences on top of current camera functions to make it a beast that no other brand can rival... but that's up to Ricoh to decide to implement that.

With the current K1, some of the things I'd like to do aren't so convenient because there are a few gaps between modes that aren't really fitting together. For instance, in camera HDR does have the auto-align feature, but composite/interval shooting doesn't have that option. Electronics shutter is used for pixel shift but not available as an option for image stacking or bracketing etc...

That said, implementing multishot techniques with a 36Mpixels sensor is a bit of an overkill. I'd rather see more multishot technique automation on apsc cameras.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 07-26-2016 at 02:55 AM.
07-26-2016, 04:42 AM   #1557
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Falk's statement led me to rethink about it.

DNG is supposed to undergo classic bayer demosaicing by existing pp software, if so, I don't see how you could use a DNG that is already demosaiced as it wouldn't comply with mainstream workflows. However, Pentax specific pixel shift algorithm with / without MC, are already available in the K1, so you can exports into a TIFF but.... unfortunately, it was already stated that this TIFF is 8bits deep. Ricoh should implement a 16bits TIFF via firmware update, or upsampled JPEG = 144Mpixels large option. Anyway, you could argue about the file size, but the pixel shifted raw are already as large as 144Mpixels files, IMO it's not an argument. Ricoh have to rethink about their approach of pixel shift for the workflow to be seamless for the end users.

---------- Post added 26-07-16 at 11:43 ----------


Yes. I guess the issue for Ricoh is if they implementing some automated multishot technique in their cameras, the possibilities are unlimited (as soon as you are on tripod), but the amount of work for them is also unlimited. For example, you could think of automating bracketing to increase DR without image quality tradeoff (the camera could use the electronic shutter to take a first image and decide for a range of exposures and take two additional shots to combine them into one). Currently, you could ad a few automation sequences on top of current camera functions to make it a beast that no other brand can rival... but that's up to Ricoh to decide to implement that.

With the current K1, some of the things I'd like to do aren't so convenient because there are a few gaps between modes that aren't really fitting together. For instance, in camera HDR does have the auto-align feature, but composite/interval shooting doesn't have that option. Electronics shutter is used for pixel shift but not available as an option for image stacking or bracketing etc...

That said, implementing multishot techniques with a 36Mpixels sensor is a bit of an overkill. I'd rather see more multishot technique automation on apsc cameras.
Focus bracketing with pixel shift. Imagine the file size!
07-26-2016, 05:43 AM   #1558
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A decade from now the price of memory capacity, speed and computational power should be sufficient to introduce such a function, even with a large pixel inflation.

In the shorter term, I hope the next high end APS-C and FF cameras will shoot the pixel shift sequence much faster. Four frames in 1/3 second should be within reach. That should reduce motion blur problems significantly regardless of how good or bad the software handles the motion blur compensation function.

Fast burst focus bracketing may potentially be one of the main new features as well and it can be used for much more then just macro. But its highly unlikely it can be combined with pixel shift.
07-26-2016, 11:27 AM   #1559
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Fast burst focus bracketing may potentially be one of the main new features as well and it can be used for much more then just macro. But its highly unlikely it can be combined with pixel shift.
Burst rate typically linked to sensor read performance and shutter. With electronic shutter there still the sensor read performance. You'd need 12FPS at 36MP to take 4 pictures with pixel shift in 1/3third of a second. That's quite high expectations by today standards for FF cameras.

Even A7R-II with a BSI modern sensor has a mere 5FPS... Sure it has 42MP but 5FPS is far from 12FPS.

On next APSC flagship if we stay 24MP and go BSI, that might be possible but still a challenge.
07-26-2016, 01:51 PM   #1560
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I wasn't thinking about 36 Mp, but 20-24.

Nikon D5 does 21 Mp at 14 fps
Canon 1DX markII does 18 Mp at 16 fps
Samsung NX1 does 28 Mp at 15 fps, and this camera is almost two years old

All these are optimized for longer series then four shots, so I think 12 fps for 1/3 of a second is quite doable on the next Pentax top FF and APS-C models. Four shots don't require a large buffer and it won't heat up the AD circuits as much as longer series.
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