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07-26-2016, 10:53 PM   #1561
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
I wasn't thinking about 36 Mp, but 20-24.

Nikon D5 does 21 Mp at 14 fps
Canon 1DX markII does 18 Mp at 16 fps
Samsung NX1 does 28 Mp at 15 fps, and this camera is almost two years old

All these are optimized for longer series then four shots, so I think 12 fps for 1/3 of a second is quite doable on the next Pentax top FF and APS-C models. Four shots don't require a large buffer and it won't heat up the AD circuits as much as longer series.
For faster buffer clearing, would having UHS-II support do the trick?

07-26-2016, 11:14 PM   #1562
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QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
For faster buffer clearing, would having UHS-II support do the trick?
It clear the buffer faster if the camera can benefit of such write speed. It will not change one bit the max FPS/burst rate or the time required for a pixel shot as there more than enough buffer for 4 images anyway. What the limiting factor is the sensor read speed.

D5 read speed: 294MP/s
Canon 1DX read speed: 288MP/s

Required read speed for 36MP at 12FPS (so pixel shift at 1/3s): 432MP/s ... 50% more than the best action camera out there.

Samsung NX1 is at 420MP/s, but Samsung did stop investing on cameras so this technology may never be really used in combination with pixel shift. Pentax doesn't make it own sensor and doesn't use Samsung sensors neither.

If Pentax provide a sport oriented FF it might do it, likely not at 36MP... And it could be argued that 36MP without pixel shift might better and more conveniant than 24MP wiht pixel shift. And in the case you can do PS at 24MP, most of the time, you may be able to do PS at 36MP with the other camera too...

Last edited by Nicolas06; 07-26-2016 at 11:22 PM.
07-27-2016, 12:44 AM   #1563
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All I say is that 4 image pixel shift in 1/3s is technically feasible with current sensor technology and buffer size and might show up in the next future top models (a year or two from now). I didn't say it should be the sustained speed to the memory card anytime soon.

Then I did speculate further into the future: a decade from now. Maybe memory cards will be so fast that a ram buffer isn't needed anymore and that full sensor readout may be done at even faster rates, enabling pixel shifted focus stacking, even with higher pixel counts.

Last edited by Simen1; 07-27-2016 at 12:50 AM.
07-27-2016, 02:42 AM   #1564
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
DNG is supposed to undergo classic bayer demosaicing by existing pp software, if so, I don't see how you could use a DNG that is already demosaiced
I believe Nicolas already mentioned it:
There is a so-called "Linear DNG" subformat which is supposed to be demosaiced data.
E.g., it is output by the DNG converter if selecting to output downscaled DNGs.

The problem with linear DNG is that it is 3x the size of uncompressed RAW, i.e., about the size of pixel-shift RAWs. Moreover, I am not sure about available bit-depths for linear DNG. Eventually, the ability to detect motion will improve over time and a true RAW format with all four sub frames would most probably still remain the best option for archiving.

07-27-2016, 02:44 AM   #1565
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
I wasn't thinking about 36 Mp, but 20-24.

Nikon D5 does 21 Mp at 14 fps
Canon 1DX markII does 18 Mp at 16 fps
Samsung NX1 does 28 Mp at 15 fps, and this camera is almost two years old

All these are optimized for longer series then four shots, so I think 12 fps for 1/3 of a second is quite doable on the next Pentax top FF and APS-C models. Four shots don't require a large buffer and it won't heat up the AD circuits as much as longer series.
You can have these sorts of things, but it requires a little newer sensor and would be quite a bit more expensive. The sensor in the A7r II probably could get close. Certainly the sensors in the D610/D750/6D aren't capable of this sort of read out speed.
07-27-2016, 04:33 AM   #1566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
It clear the buffer faster if the camera can benefit of such write speed. It will not change one bit the max FPS/burst rate or the time required for a pixel shot as there more than enough buffer for 4 images anyway. What the limiting factor is the sensor read speed.

D5 read speed: 294MP/s
Canon 1DX read speed: 288MP/s

Required read speed for 36MP at 12FPS (so pixel shift at 1/3s): 432MP/s ... 50% more than the best action camera out there.

Samsung NX1 is at 420MP/s, but Samsung did stop investing on cameras so this technology may never be really used in combination with pixel shift. Pentax doesn't make it own sensor and doesn't use Samsung sensors neither.

If Pentax provide a sport oriented FF it might do it, likely not at 36MP... And it could be argued that 36MP without pixel shift might better and more conveniant than 24MP wiht pixel shift. And in the case you can do PS at 24MP, most of the time, you may be able to do PS at 36MP with the other camera too...
To be honest I can live with four frames per second (although six would be good and doable I'd have thought). It's the buffer clearing time that does my head in. If I could shoot say five frames per second without the buffer filling up and then taking what seems until Christmas to clear, that'd be good.
07-27-2016, 04:58 AM   #1567
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You can have these sorts of things, but it requires a little newer sensor and would be quite a bit more expensive. The sensor in the A7r II probably could get close. Certainly the sensors in the D610/D750/6D aren't capable of this sort of read out speed.
The a7RII does 5fps (also in crop mode) I wouldn't expect any speed wonders from it. You can ofcourse shoot 4k video with it and just uses frames from that. You'll have 8mp 30fps.
07-27-2016, 05:10 AM   #1568
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QuoteOriginally posted by HopelessTogger Quote
To be honest I can live with four frames per second (although six would be good and doable I'd have thought). It's the buffer clearing time that does my head in. If I could shoot say five frames per second without the buffer filling up and then taking what seems until Christmas to clear, that'd be good.
To substain 4.5 FPS of a K1 indefinitely with 45MB on average per picture, you need 180MB/s actual write speed. From what I have seen only the most expensive SD card on the market can do that; Count 65€ for a 32GB lexar for example while a classical sandisk that is already quite fast is 12€.

But apparently the K1 processing power isn't enough and once the buffer is full, game is over anyway. Honestly for what I shot, I don't care.

If optimal burst performance is key for you, maybe you want a sport camera instead?

07-27-2016, 05:16 AM   #1569
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You can have these sorts of things, but it requires a little newer sensor and would be quite a bit more expensive. The sensor in the A7r II probably could get close. Certainly the sensors in the D610/D750/6D aren't capable of this sort of read out speed.
Yes, it would require a new sensor. Don't you think its plausible that the next FF and APS-C top models will get newer sensors? Its happened before and could happen again. The pricing of the top APS-C camera have usually been the same or shifted slightly down, compared to its predecessors launch prise, even if the newer model got a newer sensor. Why do you think a new sensor would be quite a bit more expensive? And why should Pentax be limited to re-use sensors that already sits in older cameras? Pentax may choose a sensor thats not implemented in any camera yet. Pentax could be the first too.
07-27-2016, 05:21 AM   #1570
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
To substain 4.5 FPS of a K1 indefinitely with 45MB on average per picture, you need 180MB/s actual write speed. From what I have seen only the most expensive SD card on the market can do that; Count 65€ for a 32GB lexar for example while a classical sandisk that is already quite fast is 12€.

But apparently the K1 processing power isn't enough and once the buffer is full, game is over anyway. Honestly for what I shot, I don't care.

If optimal burst performance is key for you, maybe you want a sport camera instead?
I do want a sports camera, it's true. I'm just thinking of the next generation K-1 in a few years time. UHS-3 by then perhaps.
07-27-2016, 05:26 AM   #1571
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Yes, it would require a new sensor. Don't you think its plausible that the next FF and APS-C top models will get newer sensors? Its happened before and could happen again. The pricing of the top APS-C camera have usually been the same or shifted slightly down, compared to its predecessors launch prise, even if the newer model got a newer sensor. Why do you think a new sensor would be quite a bit more expensive? And why should Pentax be limited to re-use sensors that already sits in older cameras? Pentax may choose a sensor thats not implemented in any camera yet. Pentax could be the first too.
I hope next APSC would get that BSI sensor on A6300 so it would be areal improvement toward 3 year old K3. But I don't know if we would get that or the K70 sensor on the next APSC flagship. It depend if Sony accept to sell the sensor to Pentax and if Pentax accept to pay for it to advertise great video, very high burst rate and cleaner high iso.

On FF, there clearly at least 2 types of FF. FF optimized for max resolution, dynamic range etc like D810 and K1. and FF optimized for action/sports with far less resolution. It doesn't look like we will get a 50MP FF with 15FPS soon. While the next sensor will be different, I'd not except very high FPS on it if it have huge resolution. And if the resolution is sometwhat low, it could be argued that you want both pixel shift and high pixel count to work with anyway.
07-27-2016, 05:42 AM   #1572
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I hope next APSC would get that BSI sensor on A6300
It's not bsi it is regular cmos (Exmor) cmos+bsi is Exmor R.
07-27-2016, 06:39 AM   #1573
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
Yes, it would require a new sensor. Don't you think its plausible that the next FF and APS-C top models will get newer sensors? Its happened before and could happen again. The pricing of the top APS-C camera have usually been the same or shifted slightly down, compared to its predecessors launch prise, even if the newer model got a newer sensor. Why do you think a new sensor would be quite a bit more expensive? And why should Pentax be limited to re-use sensors that already sits in older cameras? Pentax may choose a sensor thats not implemented in any camera yet. Pentax could be the first too.
Oh, I think they will get a new sensor. It is just that the cost of the sports cameras that have been mentioned in this thread is astronomical. Price of APS-C cameras with similar specifications is less than half, although still pretty pricey. Feels more likely that a K3 sequel could hit 10 fps with adequate processing power to take care of 3 or 4 seconds of frames.
07-27-2016, 09:11 AM   #1574
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I don't think the sensor price is what drives the cost up. Sports cameras have in general expensive AF modules that are costly to develop and its not that many cameras sold to share the development costs, compared to low end FF. Sports cameras also have higher built quality, larger battery, very high processing power and huge memory buffers. They are also tested to higher tolerances and usually made in Japan, not Thailand, China and so on. Pentax don't need to (and shouldn't) go in C/N footsteps. If they make a K-1 successor with a D5 sensor it don't need to have all the other features and cost of D5.

Sony are of course constantly developing better sensors. So far it looks like several different lines. 16-21 Mp high speed for D4/D5-series. 20-24 Mp low speed series, and 36-42 Mp high resolution series. There have been some rumors about a 30-32 Mp compromise between high speed and high resolution that might come out soon.
07-27-2016, 09:33 AM   #1575
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
I don't think the sensor price is what drives the cost up. Sports cameras have in general expensive AF modules that are costly to develop and its not that many cameras sold to share the development costs, compared to low end FF. Sports cameras also have higher built quality, larger battery, very high processing power and huge memory buffers. They are also tested to higher tolerances and usually made in Japan, not Thailand, China and so on. Pentax don't need to (and shouldn't) go in C/N footsteps. If they make a K-1 successor with a D5 sensor it don't need to have all the other features and cost of D5.
We seem to disagree here. Now that Pentax has the K-1, they have less reason to aim the "Flagship APS-C" line at landscape photography, and so it will be natural for them to aim it at sports / events; they don't need all of the D5 capabilities, but simply expanding on what the K-70 has started could lead to a true "dynamic duo", the K-70 for amateur sports/events, and the K-3ii followup for the real thing.
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