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02-20-2016, 03:41 AM - 1 Like   #391
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
: A Nikon D750 with an existing 2.8/70-200 has many many advantages over a K1 with a one-year delayed 2.8/70-200. The Pentax combo will be MUCH heavier and the footprint of the Pentax will be LARGER
Weird example, Zapp.

The D750 is a class below - it's a 24Mp camera without SR when many members already get that resolution from their K-3.

The 810 is a thousand dollars more expensive, still has no SR and is - how did you put it? "LARGER" than the K-1. ☺

And I'm genuinely interested to know if the Nikon 70-200 is any smaller than the Pentax.


Last edited by clackers; 02-20-2016 at 03:46 AM.
02-20-2016, 03:54 AM   #392
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
I think it is good to read other opinions and filter yourself. Here we can often read overly enthusiastic reviews of Pentax gear, Ken Rockwell may count for the exact opposite. The answer is somewhere in between. Ken points at a bunch of shortcomings in the Pentax system, most of them are obvious to objective readers. On the other hand he forgets to mention the advantages of Pentax that makes the camera worthwile.
Considering a K1, most of us will need to buy a bunch of new lenses - at least in the long run. The investment will be quite significant and we all will have to ask ourselves what else is out there. Simple example: A Nikon D750 with an existing 2.8/70-200 has many many advantages over a K1 with a one-year delayed 2.8/70-200. The Pentax combo will be MUCH heavier and the footprint of the Pentax will be LARGER (heavier and larger than... is new to Penatx cameras), AF will not reach Nikon standards (camera and lens focusing engine wise). Sure enough Pentax has in body shake reduction and all of us lived with SLOW AF for years, K1 can only be faster.
Summing it up: K1 is a turning point for Pentax placing a camera next to the full Canon, Nikon, Sony, lineup. We lived on promises for years. The next couple months will decide about Pentax' future. Today, I would not invest in a K1, but we are still at a pre-presentation stage. I expect more hard announcements within the next weeks that will most likely convince me.
Ken Rockwell is not objective, he is just a fountain of opinions and he doesn't need facts to get in the way of them. He wrote a "review" of the 645z knocking it down for having too many auto focus points and having too many auto modes -- all without ever even handling one. Here, he just (in bad taste) says that Pentaxians all have Asperger's and they're the only ones who might be satisfied with something so unsatisfactory -- even while he talks up an entry level camera like the D5300.

I think all of us here know that this is not a perfect camera. Clearly Pentax chose not to put a really high frame rate in this camera -- and at 36 megapixels it wasn't likely to be a sports camera anyway. Video is sort of an after thought here as on other Pentax cameras. We don't know enough about auto focus to make a statement, although I would say that AF-S has been excellent in current generation Pentax cameras and it is only AF -C that needed work, hopefully it is better.

It is really tough to compare the K-1 to the D750. They just are such different cameras targeted at different purposes. The D750 is more expensive, has only 24 megapixels, and probably has a weaker build than the K-1. Because it only has 24 megapixels, it is able to shoot faster frame rates. At this point, we don't know about dynamic range, etc but odds are the K-1 will out perform the D750 in low iso situations and be better landscape camera. But based on your analysis, the D810 is a miserable fail, as everything you said about the K-1 pretty much applies to it as well -- plus it is a thousand dollars more expensive than the D750. What gives?

I've rambled on here awhile. I would just say that this is a start. Pentax has tried to create a reasonably priced full frame camera that gives a nice level of performance and allows for automatic function of K mount lenses. There aren't any other cameras out there that fit this bill and if you own (or desire) lenses like the FA limiteds than this is the camera for you. If you need a camera to shoot the Olympics, than it probably isn't (but neither are the D810 or 5D MK III either).
02-20-2016, 03:57 AM - 1 Like   #393
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Weird example, Zapp.

The D750 is a class below - it's a 24Mp camera without SR when many members already get that resolution from their K-3.

The 810 is a thousand dollars more expensive, still has no SR and is - how did you put it? "LARGER" than the K-1. ☺

And I'm genuinely interested to know if the Nikon 70-200 is any smaller than the Pentax.
Size seems to be comparable, Nikon 87x209mm and Pentax 91,5x203mm but weight is 1540gr for the Nikon and 2020 for the Pentax.
The Nikon has in lens shake reduction and is slightly cheaper. Both are expensive though.


Edit,
Could we all please stop talk about Ken Rockwell?
I've haven't cared about his ramblings for years, and I still don't care.
02-20-2016, 04:04 AM   #394
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QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
Size seems to be comparable, Nikon 87x209mm and Pentax 91,5x203mm but weight is 1540gr for the Nikon and 2020 for the Pentax.
The Nikon has in lens shake reduction and is slightly cheaper. Both are expensive though..
Thanks for the info, Gimbal!


QuoteOriginally posted by Gimbal Quote
,
Could we all please stop talk about Ken Rockwell?
I've haven't cared about his ramblings for years, and I still don't care.


02-20-2016, 04:26 AM - 4 Likes   #395
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QuoteOriginally posted by jcdoss Quote
But he's only trying to support his growing family.
That actually is the scary part...think of the effect on our gene pool as a species

I never go to his site, exactly because of his biased, trolling, click-bait modus operandi. Never a penny towards a raving idiot like him. Just leave him in the mental gutter where he resides.
02-20-2016, 04:56 AM   #396
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When I think of it I realize one thing that nobody really said.

We all said the K1 had a set of compromize and issue and was good. Some poeple where saying D750 is better. I agree for some use.

But I realize that K1 is simply the best FF ever for landscape/outdoor. There no single FF out there even the A7R-II that match it for that setup. The D810 is not match neither.

When you combine 36MP, articulated screen, pixel shift, built in astro tracer and GPS, superior build you understand that there no single camera that match it on a tripod outdoor. The 645Z still is superior because of its larger sensor but that's it.

D750 is a wedding camera. It has mostly better AF mainly for it and that's all. Even for common use outside of AF it is worse on all aspects: not as good ergonomics, not as well built, no GPS tagging, not as fine resolution and so on. I agree it would do a better job for sport provided you doesn't need that much reach because its resolution is too limiting.

And for me the single thing that will make or break K1 as just the best outdoor/landscape camera or as outstanding overall camera is its AF-C performance. If it has good enough AF-C, then the K1 will be the graal, the best overal camera you can buy, better than D810 or A7R-II all alround for a better price. If the AF-C lag behind, it will remain a great camera but a bit more for its niche.

And nothing prevent Pentax in 2 years to bring us a K1-II that is exactly like a K1-II but with BSI sensor, 8FPS and even better AF for 2500$ with the first K1 still available for 1000-1200$ new.
02-20-2016, 05:13 AM - 1 Like   #397
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
When I think of it I realize one thing that nobody really said.

We all said the K1 had a set of compromize and issue and was good. Some poeple where saying D750 is better. I agree for some use.

When you combine 36MP, articulated screen, pixel shift, built in astro tracer and GPS, superior build you understand that there no single camera that match it on a tripod outdoor. The 645Z still is superior because of its larger sensor but that's it.

D750 is a wedding camera. It has mostly better AF mainly for it and that's all. Even for common use outside of AF it is worse on all aspects: not as good ergonomics, not as well built, no GPS tagging, not as fine resolution and so on. I agree it would do a better job for sport provided you doesn't need that much reach because its resolution is too limiting.

And nothing prevent Pentax in 2 years to bring us a K1-II that is exactly like a K1-II but with BSI sensor, 8FPS and even better AF for 2500$ with the first K1 still available for 1000-1200$ new.
Let's not compare specs too much, we don't even know the full story of the K1 and the new lens roadmap. That said, (1) be aware that you can buy right now a lot of high-end glass for you Nikon not available for Pentax. (2) The K1 system must convince people not a K1-ii in two years time. K5-ii and K3-ii did not solve shortcomings of the original model. The difference in pixel count between 24 and 36 MP is marginal. 24 MP should have better high ISO performance and 36 MP has a small edge in resolution GIVEN that you have lenses that work with 36 MP (and your technique should also be high-end).
02-20-2016, 05:23 AM   #398
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
The difference in pixel count between 24 and 36 MP is marginal.
It's a little bit more than marginal - I have both.

02-20-2016, 05:30 AM   #399
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
Let's not compare specs too much, we don't even know the full story of the K1 and the new lens roadmap. That said, (1) be aware that you can buy right now a lot of high-end glass for you Nikon not available for Pentax. (2) The K1 system must convince people not a K1-ii in two years time. K5-ii and K3-ii did not solve shortcomings of the original model. The difference in pixel count between 24 and 36 MP is marginal. 24 MP should have better high ISO performance and 36 MP has a small edge in resolution GIVEN that you have lenses that work with 36 MP (and your technique should also be high-end).
Here we disagree on most things

- 24M with low pass filter vs 36MP without low pass filter and pixel shift is for me huge difference in sharpness. This would be 30-40% higher MTF figures without pixel shift. Same difference as 6 vs 12MP because of the low pass filter. With pixel shift combined, you are at MF levels and no FF will match. A bit like like 6MP vs 24MP. Might only count for huge print, and might not be necessary in most cases, but this rule out D750 for this kind of practice.
- D750 vs D810 performance in high iso is very similar under the error margin... Even if I check at say 6400 iso, there no visible difference in measurements. 36MP is not a problem. Noticably A7-II 24MP and D600 24MP have worse high iso performance than their 36MP counterpart (A7R-II and D800).
- K1 is already great even if the AF is not improved at all just from being FF 36MP and all the other stuff (SR, pixel shift, superior ergonomics, build quality...). The question is more will it be the camera of the year taking the whole market because AF-C is great, or just a great camera.
- In both case a refresh with a -II in Pentax tradition is good marketing move. It allow to correct a few things, bump prices and get some sales. In all case, I would expect AF-C to be 100% fixed by that time, meaning there would be no argument for a Canikon.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 02-20-2016 at 05:35 AM.
02-20-2016, 06:04 AM - 4 Likes   #400
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
Let's not compare specs too much, we don't even know the full story of the K1 and the new lens roadmap. That said, (1) be aware that you can buy right now a lot of high-end glass for you Nikon not available for Pentax. (2) The K1 system must convince people not a K1-ii in two years time. K5-ii and K3-ii did not solve shortcomings of the original model. The difference in pixel count between 24 and 36 MP is marginal. 24 MP should have better high ISO performance and 36 MP has a small edge in resolution GIVEN that you have lenses that work with 36 MP (and your technique should also be high-end).
Right. Let's not compare specs too much. As you said, we don't know the full story of the "K1" (It's K-1, BTW).
Instead, let's just rave on about the virtue of Nikon over Pentax based on, on, um, well, er, uh. Oh, nevermind. We don't need to base it on anything, Nikon is just better.
02-20-2016, 06:16 AM - 2 Likes   #401
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I don't even get why some of us dare to compare K-1 to any other cam
Pentax is just different
02-20-2016, 06:17 AM   #402
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
AF will not reach Nikon standards (camera and lens focusing engine wise)
Although this is what conventional wisdom repeatedly states, we won't know the facts until the camera is tested with some new lenses.
02-20-2016, 06:20 AM   #403
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I know the feeling

Sometimes I feel like I belong to a sect: The Pentaxians. No matter what they say, we only believe what we want to believe about Pentax. I sometimes ask, why Ricoh or the previous owners of Pentax do not use that force to move forward? Just meditating during my Pentax break!
02-20-2016, 06:29 AM - 2 Likes   #404
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
24 MP should have better high ISO performance
Current notions state that for latest sensor technology, the number of pixels has no effect on noise, as for any given sensor size, the total amount of light gathered by all the pixels is about the same. When viewed at 100%, it is only the different levels of magnification (due to the different pixel size) that make the noise more or less visible.
02-20-2016, 06:43 AM - 2 Likes   #405
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I don't even get why some of us dare to compare K-1 to any other cam
Pentax is just different
Yep. We already have Canon and Nikon. We don't need a third.

Sony is an alternative technology. Fine cameras, different path.

Pentax is THE alternative full-range dSLR brand. Once we get that message across we can stop measuring Pentax against some supposed index and start measuring Pentax against its (and our) goals.
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