Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
02-25-2016, 12:12 PM   #616
Veteran Member
patarok's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 351
Every DSLR maker does this.. Nikon also.... Sony also... Canon also does outsourcing... (top secret) but it is said, that the L lenses are still produced in a dedicated CANON plant in japan...(but I highly doubt that they dont buy some components from other companies )
-->useless discussion!
This discussion reminds me at the dude who wanted to build his own toaster ... WITH EVERYTHING MADE BY HIMSELF MADE OUT OF RAW MATERIALS!!!!

have a look at the results ....

The Toaster Project
https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toaster_from_scratch?language=en

so i hope you have seen what comes out here...

so plz stop that discussion ... NOW!
THX

BTW: Once there was light at the end of the tunnel, but now we know:

PENTAX IS DOOMED!

02-25-2016, 12:45 PM   #617
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,112
QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
Talking of lenses has anyone checked the prices of Pentax lenses lately?

The FA 31 was just on B&H last night for around $750. It went back up over a thousand today. There still are a lot of great deals though. The FA 43 and 77 are both discounted. The DFA 100 WR is only $370. Those DA 50 and 35 are selling for $90 and $100.

I think these prices have been like this for a while.
BHPhoto is not the centre of universe.

K??????? / ??? / ?? | RICOH IMAGING
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/support/catalog/pdf/lenses_accessories.pdf
All FA limited are in newest lens catalogue and at the site of Ricoh.

And easy to buy worldwide.
02-25-2016, 01:06 PM   #618
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North East of England
Posts: 5,534
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Nope. They never did.
In which case you may want to propose corrections to the Wikipedia article... If it's genuinely wrong, I stand corrected!

If you search Google for "Wikipedia Pentax Tokina" and bring up the wiki entry, it reads as follows:

Tokina has[when?] become a partner of Pentax, a division of Ricoh, and has agreed to jointly develop some lenses. These will[when?] be available under the Pentax brand in Pentax K mount and under the Tokina brand for all other lens mounts. However, the research center, design and engineering teams of these two companies are[when?] completely independent.
The co-developed lenses share main optical designs but have different barrel structures and coatings.[citation needed] They also have some other different features. For example, the Tokina AT-X Pro 12-24mm II comes with built-in silent focusing motor, while the Pentax version has screwdrive autofocus. Another example is that Tokina AT-X Pro 16-50mm and 50-135mm have only screw-drive autofocus and no weather-sealing, but Pentax versions have both features.


This is my only reference, so you may well be correct...

Last edited by BigMackCam; 02-25-2016 at 01:12 PM.
02-25-2016, 01:19 PM - 1 Like   #619
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,543
QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
But these are cameras! Why is the pre-order price jacked up ? We're doing them a favor by pre-ordering the camera, and they'll have an EXACT idea of how much stock they'll need to order. If they don't put it out there in the form of a pre-order, they'll have no idea as to how much stock they should get in. If they get in too much, they'll have stock sitting. If they haven't got enough stock, they'll lose sales to their competitors.
This is marketing 101 and a form of market segmentation.

The idea is that you have the choice to make a single product, at a given price and you'll gain some amount of money.

But if we analyse things:
- some people that want the product cannot afford it and don't buy. It is too expensive.
- some people are willing to pay more for the product but you'll not get more money from them if you don't ask.

Reality is that if you are selling 1 variety of potatoes, you can split into 2 packs, call one premium choice and ask 3 time for it. Some people will still buy it even you it is exactly the same product.

So what you do is you propose the product at different price. If you keep exactly the same product but ask for 3 price, cheap, normal price and expensive price you'll sell much more and make more money.

The cheap version is going to get sales from people that could not have afforded the initial price. As long as the marginal cost to get 1 more is cheap enough, it is better to get some sales from them anyway.

The expensive version allow you to ask more from people that are willing to pay more, so obviously that a benefit.

This work very well for potatoes. But clothes is also typical. You just need to change the brand name and you can ask 100$ instead of 50$ or 20$. This work for camera too like the Leica rebadges.

In electronics, you play on the exclusivity of being the first to have the product, the benefit of showing to friends. They don't have it yet, you have. You are going to shine at the coffee break. So manufacturers ask more when a product has just been available, and very shortly drop the price. If timed well, you get all the money early adopter were willing to pay for but also the money from "normal" people but also from the few that will buy it on sale at an incredible discount. You have to time it right: giving enough premium time for early adopter so they can show off long enough but not too long, so you get the money from the other segments.

Of course, if people get the impression they are deceived and pay too much for no reason or the cheap version is as good, your model doesn't work. So in all cases you need to ensure the wealthy or normal people don't all get the cheap version. You use a brand name, you remove/add a feature insisting on the huge difference it make or why not... change the sensor size.

All the idea can be applied. Theses potatoes are better for your health, this chicken is allal, the camera has less/more MP, the car has better looking wheels... The default frequency of the CPU is set higher/slower. You make your line of clothes advertized by some famous wealthy person and don't sell in the same shop... As long as the change in cost for you is minimal, you fully benefit of it.

02-25-2016, 01:28 PM   #620
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 645
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
BHPhoto is not the centre of universe.

K??????? / ??? / ?? | RICOH IMAGING
http://www.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/japan/support/catalog/pdf/lenses_accessories.pdf
All FA limited are in newest lens catalogue and at the site of Ricoh.

And easy to buy worldwide.
ogl sorry I didn't mean to imply that B&H was the center of the universe. But they are a good gauge for US prices.

The US dollar has been pretty strong the last year which has brought down the price of Pentax lenses in the US.
02-25-2016, 02:36 PM   #621
Pentaxian
Pål Jensen's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Norway
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,064
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
In which case you may want to propose corrections to the Wikipedia article... If it's genuinely wrong, I stand corrected!..
It says nothing abut those lenses being made by Tokina. The 16-50/2.8, at least, is made by Pentax.
02-25-2016, 03:47 PM - 1 Like   #622
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,543
QuoteOriginally posted by Schraubstock Quote
And face the same problem there. You are intimating Canon and Nikon are problem free.
Canikon must be very pleased with your logic. It is this sort of baseless not well thought out statement which gives these two manufacturers this "über" and largely unjustifiable reputation.

Cheers
Having a bad experience doesn't mean anything in terms of statistics for the next time, but you may not fully appreciate to have paid 1800$ for something that doesn't work as expected. You'll want to get rid of it and you'll complain.

This is human nature. This is clearly even more true if you choosed something that is not so well recognized. It will be easy to blame it on the exotic choice.

Now if the firmware is rushed and doesn't work well, this is not a discussion if your fault rate is 10% instead of 5% but that your only product that target a given market segment, the one product you bet your future on has 100% faillure rate.

This can be enougth to ruin the company. More tests greatly decrease the likelyness of such terrible event and doesn't cost much anyway as sales for camera are not good in winter.

Again I work as a software engineer, clients always want things sooner and insist you rush things. They are really willing you to take any risk.

When things go wrong, they don't hesitate to sue you and ask millions $ of indemnity for not matching the contract. Because what they asked you to do is to take the responsability of the risk.

The people here want to have they toy sooner and right now they discount the possibility of any faillure. But it is a bet they have no experience on, no way to evaluate and not the right to make instead of Pentax anyway. I think the guy that ask that are not ready to provide insurence to Pentax, giving them a few dozen millions dollars in case the K-1 doesn't sell.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 02-25-2016 at 03:55 PM.
02-25-2016, 03:57 PM   #623
Loyal Site Supporter
clackers's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Melbourne
Photos: Albums
Posts: 7,702
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

I've lived through this. My company was acquired. My division was the jewel in the crown. The new owner systematically dismembered the internal processes, flattened the personnel structure, installed their own internal processes amd people, but kept the core internal science and external brand que's. From my perspective, though the name was continued, my original company no longer exists.
Well, that's grubby, but I hope your buyers are actually in the same line of business, and aren't just some equity group that'll slash half the workforce and sell in a couple of years.

As you know, Ricoh bought Pentax for its camera expertise, customers and assets, rather than Hoya, who just wanted the medical products.

02-25-2016, 04:16 PM   #624
Lens Buying Addict
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,470
QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
As you know, Ricoh bought Pentax for its camera expertise, customers and assets, rather than Hoya, who just wanted the medical products.
Our buyers acquired $1.3 Trillion in client assets. That was their motivation. By making the changes they increased ROE from 11.3% to. 23.2% in 5 years. And you can guess who was well served and who has suffered.

All I'm saying is, Ricoh surely changed operations. Whatever their motivation - and we want to ascribe to them benign intent - change is change. It isn't Pentax any more. It wouldn't be Pentax any more if Asahi had not been LBO'ed because to avoid it they would have had to change.

But what it is has so much potential and is so good now that none of that matters.
02-25-2016, 04:36 PM   #625
Site Supporter
Merts's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 131
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote

But what it is has so much potential and is so good now that none of that matters.
Indeed.
02-25-2016, 04:48 PM   #626
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,417
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It isn't Pentax any more.
Was it still Pentax, after Hoya took over and started their cost cutting and reorganization? Where's the line between being, and not being Pentax?
02-25-2016, 04:51 PM - 2 Likes   #627
Lens Buying Addict
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,470
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Was it still Pentax, after Hoya took over and started their cost cutting and reorganization? Where's the line between being, and not being Pentax?
Thank you for completing my thesis.
02-25-2016, 04:59 PM   #628
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North East of England
Posts: 5,534
QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It says nothing abut those lenses being made by Tokina. The 16-50/2.8, at least, is made by Pentax.
Thanks for that, Pål... so the 16-50 f/2.8 is being manufactured by Tokina for their own version covering other mounts, and by Pentax for the DA* 16-50? Is that correct?

I'm surprised, because Photozone's review of the Tokina 16-50 reads as follows:

The Tokina AF 16-50mm f/2.8 AT-X Pro DX has been announced at the PMA ... not 2007 but 2006 ... <snip> ... A lesser known aspect is the design background of the lens. It has been co-developed with Pentax where we'll seen a slightly different incarnation later this year (Pentax SMC DA* 16-50mm f/2.8 AL ED [IF] SDM). The Pentax-Tokina relationship is not a new one actually - e.g. the Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4 AT-X Pro DX and Tokina AF 50-135mm f/2.8 AT-X Pro DX, both highly regarded lenses, have the same origins so what we have here is a third-party lens with a little spice and glory from a genuine manufacturer.

If what Photozone says is true, this would suggest that, at the very least, certain Tokina and Pentax lenses have been developed through partnership between the companies (and I can't, in all honesty, see Pentax being the primary party in the optical design - given that Tokina is, these days, mainly a lens designer / manufacturer). If what you say is true, it would further suggest that the DA* 16-50 - developed in partnership with Tokina - is being manufactured by Pentax independently. If that's the case, you have to wonder if Tokina's manufacture of their own branded 16-50 makes sense in today's cost-conscious business world, where two companies manufacturing (almost) the same lens is an obvious target for cost optimisation.

Either way, I think we can agree that a number of Pentax's lenses - going back several years before this increasing partnership with Tamron for FF glass - are not completely Pentax products, as they're co-developed with other lens manufacturers (and, in my view, they're no worse for it).

EDIT: ... and my original point for all this (even if what I said turns out not to be 100% accurate - apologies if that's the case), is that the Tamron-isation of Pentax (as @giuseppesavo put it) isn't a cause for concern, and - in fact - is nothing new in concept.

Last edited by BigMackCam; 02-25-2016 at 05:28 PM.
02-25-2016, 05:45 PM   #629
Pentaxian
D1N0's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: ---
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,613
QuoteOriginally posted by BigMackCam Quote
Thanks for that, Pål... so the 16-50 f/2.8 is being manufactured by Tokina for their own version covering other mounts, and by Pentax for the DA* 16-50? Is that correct?

I'm surprised, because Photozone's review of the Tokina 16-50 reads as follows:

The Tokina AF 16-50mm f/2.8 AT-X Pro DX has been announced at the PMA ... not 2007 but 2006 ... <snip> ... A lesser known aspect is the design background of the lens. It has been co-developed with Pentax where we'll seen a slightly different incarnation later this year (Pentax SMC DA* 16-50mm f/2.8 AL ED [IF] SDM). The Pentax-Tokina relationship is not a new one actually - e.g. the Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4 AT-X Pro DX and Tokina AF 50-135mm f/2.8 AT-X Pro DX, both highly regarded lenses, have the same origins so what we have here is a third-party lens with a little spice and glory from a genuine manufacturer.

If what Photozone says is true, this would suggest that, at the very least, certain Tokina and Pentax lenses have been developed through partnership between the companies (and I can't, in all honesty, see Pentax being the primary party in the optical design - given that Tokina is, these days, mainly a lens designer / manufacturer). If what you say is true, it would further suggest that the DA* 16-50 - developed in partnership with Tokina - is being manufactured by Pentax independently. If that's the case, you have to wonder if Tokina's manufacture of their own branded 16-50 makes sense in today's cost-conscious business world, where two companies manufacturing (almost) the same lens is an obvious target for cost optimisation.

Either way, I think we can agree that a number of Pentax's lenses - going back several years before this increasing partnership with Tamron for FF glass - are not completely Pentax products, as they're co-developed with other lens manufacturers (and, in my view, they're no worse for it).

EDIT: ... and my original point for all this (even if what I said turns out not to be 100% accurate - apologies if that's the case), is that the Tamron-isation of Pentax (as @giuseppesavo put it) isn't a cause for concern, and - in fact - is nothing new in concept.
There is a thread about this: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/10-pentax-slr-lens-discussion/298952-whos...ntax-lens.html
02-25-2016, 06:09 PM   #630
Moderator
Loyal Site Supporter
BigMackCam's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: North East of England
Posts: 5,534
Thanks - that's an interesting thread
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
auto, base, camera, company, compression, d810, design, dr, electrons, fa, hardware, iso, k-1, k-3, lenses, pentax, pentax body, pentax k-1, pentax news, pentax rumors, photos, pre-order, risk, sensor, specifications, timelapse, trip, vs
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Pentax K-3 II Officially Announced Adam Pentax News and Rumors 1015 07-03-2015 10:55 PM
Pentax K-S2 Officially Announced Adam Pentax K-S1 & K-S2 12 05-23-2015 06:49 AM
Pentax K-30 Officially Announced! Adam Pentax News and Rumors 245 09-12-2012 08:32 PM
Pentax K-5 Officially Announced Adam Pentax News and Rumors 533 03-06-2012 05:45 AM
K-5 Firmware 1.02 Officially Announced Ole Pentax K-5 50 01-20-2011 10:05 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:32 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top