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03-17-2016, 01:31 PM   #886
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
The K-1 is a 36Mp camera, the D750 is only 24Mp.
But the K-1 is not a D810 competitor, don'cha know.


/sarc

03-17-2016, 01:46 PM   #887
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
Maximizing profit and taking advantage of an error is not the same thing. You, as a buyer, can shop around and attempt to reduce your cost.
Some way of maximizing profit are ethical. For example you provide more for your client at a cheap price so everybody buy from you, you get economy of scale, everybody happy.

Another way is to increase productivity and share the benefit on both side.

If you truely have different products that you can make easily that respond to different need same from the same machines and technology, you also have a nice way to ethically improve profit by serving more people. If also you provide a high end version that provide feature necessary to some people and that cost you more, it seems logical to ask for more...

Now playing on the notion of branding so you can ask more for the same product, or making a more expensive version of the extact same thing (K50 vs K30) and asking significantly more for it because it is newer, I don't find it that nice. Asking more for the exact same razor because it is advertized for womens instead of men and seeing that the bigger the shop, the more distance the 2 products can be, the bigger the price difference is because people are less likely to figure it out, I don't find it fair.... Asking more per kg for the familly pack than for the price at unit because people have a bias of thinking the familly pack that can save on wrapping will be cheaper is not ethical neither. The typical strategy to have appealing price for a few products that you know from behavioral studies people will tend to check price but asking for very high price for things people don't think to check, that's not ethical.

This is trying to deceive your clients, hoping they'll make the error to not check the price per kilogram, that they'll make the error to take the product "designed" for their gender, that they'll make the error to assume the newer K50 camera is better than the K30, induce them in error with marketing that the expensive clothes are better than the cheap one while in practice this is the same... That trying to deceive their brain to see when they don't remember that you are trying to deceive as most as you can and they should check every single bit of thing they buy from you extensively...

This is funny how we find ethical to abuse people that are not smart enough, that are not methodic enough, that are too trustfull, that are simply tired at that moment how this doesn't count... But if a merchant make an error when putting a price then benefiting of it is not ethical.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 03-17-2016 at 02:13 PM.
03-17-2016, 01:56 PM   #888
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Business is business.
Don't mix with moral considerations.
Political, why not... oh wait, that even rarely makes sense.
03-17-2016, 02:00 PM   #889
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Business is business.
Don't mix with moral considerations.
Political, why not... oh wait, that even rarely makes sense.
Then let's consider a client buying something as doing business too


Last edited by Nicolas06; 03-17-2016 at 02:10 PM.
03-17-2016, 02:27 PM   #890
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
The K-1 is a 36Mp camera, the D750 is only 24Mp.
I love that segmentation... All theses camera are competitors, even between different sensor format (APSC vs FF etc). That artificial wall we put as market segmentation and marketers love how they can play with that

D750 vs D610 vs K-1 vs D810 vs Canon 6D vs 5DmarkIII vs 5Ds and a few other they are all in competition, they are the same product. All take photo, all share the same basic concepts and features and would give similar results in most cases. Even an APSC camera like K3/K3-II/D7200 or D500... they are in the same pack.

Then the manufacturer try to put have unique selling point, features that distinguish themselves like pixel shift, SR, fancy AF, lot of pixels, low price, great high iso performance or even astro tracer as reasons to go for one model or another.

Saying that the camera that cost 2200 is not worth the difference vs the one at 1800 is putting more weight on the assets of the 1800 camera (among other things price) than the one at 2200 (for example 36MP, pixelshift, astrotracer or SR). And that's perfectly fine. Everybody has different set of priorities.

Other than that if you are already invested in Pentax or if you don't have to buy the day it is out, I don't really see the issue, the price don't look bad by any means and I am sure you'll find it cheaper than that if you look a bit.
03-17-2016, 03:41 PM   #891
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
But the K-1 is not a D810 competitor, don'cha know.


/sarc
But the spec of K-1 is way better and cheaper than D810

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/169-pentax-full-frame/314375-spec-compari...non-nikon.html
03-17-2016, 04:10 PM - 1 Like   #892
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QuoteOriginally posted by rlatjsrud Quote
Yes, I saw the Pentaxeros spreadsheet some weeks ago.

There's a poster here who insists the K-1 competes with the D750, then says the K-1 is overpriced (a Strawman argument). The poster just won't accept the K-1 is Pentax's answer to the D810.
03-17-2016, 04:51 PM   #893
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The primary audience for the K-1 are crop-sensor Pentatians who have been waiting forever for such a camera, no matter its specs or price point. The secondary group are those CaNikon users who are not yet invested in CaNikon FF due to price/features headwinds. A portion of these may jump ship as they are not truly invested in the CaNikon ecosystem (e.g. D5000 owner with two kit lenses). The third group is more nuanced: those who, no matter what gear they currently own, are truly excited about the features/pricepoint that the K-1 offers. The 36Mp is important for this group. Also key for this group is the availability of a rich system of compatible accessories from lenses to flashes to adapters and more. Therein lies the rub: the Pentax ecosystem is not as rich compared to CaNikon or even Sony. There are other marketing segments as well. Notwithstanding, the K-1 is deliberately designed to address a wide range of markets. I "think" they got it mostly right. Can't wait to try one out.

Michael

03-17-2016, 04:52 PM   #894
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I think of course K-1 is a competitor to the D810. Having used the D810 and the D750 alongside my k-5 and a borrowed k-3, unless Pentax suddenly figured out how to track focus quickly and accurately both Nikons will blow Pentax out of the water, if that's something you care about...

Nikon has some really expensive optics to complement the D810's resolution. I hope my collection of old Pentax Primes will be sufficient for the K-1 when I eventually get it.
03-17-2016, 05:14 PM   #895
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yes, I saw the Pentaxeros spreadsheet some weeks ago.

There's a poster here who insists the K-1 competes with the D750, then says the K-1 is overpriced (a Strawman argument). The poster just won't accept the K-1 is Pentax's answer to the D810.
I believe the K1 competes against the D750 market, dont know the actual sales but i believe most D750 are being sold tha D810, the Spec sheet is likely on level or above the D810 (except Af, that is to be determined but im go Nikon)... The K1 price is for me aimed to the people who want a FF, all around camera and affordable; and dont have to many invest on other sistem and the current Pentax user base, and in that area the D750 works for the same reason to Canon and Pentax user....
03-17-2016, 05:35 PM   #896
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
But the K-1 is not a D810 competitor, don'cha know.


/sarc

I think some of us might have missed the /sarc-asm tag at the bottom and thought you were serious.
03-17-2016, 11:57 PM   #897
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I think some of us might have missed the /sarc-asm tag at the bottom and thought you were serious.
Problem is sarcasm or not, all theses camera are actual competitor. People will only buy one most likely and choose depending on many factors. Some may not care of 36MP and be happy with a FF that is just an FF, what the D600/D610 always targeted as well as A7: a cheap FF.

Some like the D750 that is still cheap and has good AF, because they consider that AF is an actually very useful feature and they are shooting subjects in difficult AF condition. They may not care of astro shoots or printing 40x60" were 36MP would make a difference...In camera body or in lens SR might not be a differentiator for them, except that for long lenses, in lenses is more comfortable to use... To me that a very consistant view and I don't see the issue to think that a D810 or a K-1 don't bring more useful feature to them.

With 1800$/2000€ entry point, the goal was clearly to target the cheap FF segment with a great set of features. And that well played except that of course in some market, the K-1 will not be that cheap. Well that how it is. In theses markets, the K-1 will still remains the most capable DSLR camera ever for outdoor/landscapes, but because it might not be a cheap camera it will still appeal to people after an outdoor/lanscape camera, maybe not that much after people after a price.


Sure we don't like it, but Canon/Nikon didn't sit when they saw the K-1, I understand that in Japan prices of Canikon FFs dropped quite a bit too, so even if K-1 is cheap, other FF camera are even cheaper or same price, even advanced ones. If nothing else, Pentax allowed the consumer of all brand to get more for less !
03-18-2016, 01:20 AM   #898
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote


Sure we don't like it, but Canon/Nikon didn't sit when they saw the K-1, I understand that in Japan prices of Canikon FFs dropped quite a bit too, so even if K-1 is cheap, other FF camera are even cheaper or same price, even advanced ones. If nothing else, Pentax allowed the consumer of all brand to get more for less !
In my country (Switzerland) the K-1 costs as much the D750 together with the Tamron 15-30..! (my next lens for the K-1) and has the same price as a D810. And for me It does not make a huge difference buying it from US or locally, its is almost same price. But i hope with my preorder to get the beast sooner
For a moment i did considered the D750+15-30 combo.. but the ergonomics, the solid body and my "little" lens collection kept me here
03-18-2016, 03:09 AM   #899
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Some way of maximizing profit are ethical. For example you provide more for your client at a cheap price so everybody buy from you, you get economy of scale, everybody happy.

Another way is to increase productivity and share the benefit on both side.

If you truely have different products that you can make easily that respond to different need same from the same machines and technology, you also have a nice way to ethically improve profit by serving more people. If also you provide a high end version that provide feature necessary to some people and that cost you more, it seems logical to ask for more...

Now playing on the notion of branding so you can ask more for the same product, or making a more expensive version of the extact same thing (K50 vs K30) and asking significantly more for it because it is newer, I don't find it that nice. Asking more for the exact same razor because it is advertized for womens instead of men and seeing that the bigger the shop, the more distance the 2 products can be, the bigger the price difference is because people are less likely to figure it out, I don't find it fair.... Asking more per kg for the familly pack than for the price at unit because people have a bias of thinking the familly pack that can save on wrapping will be cheaper is not ethical neither. The typical strategy to have appealing price for a few products that you know from behavioral studies people will tend to check price but asking for very high price for things people don't think to check, that's not ethical.

This is trying to deceive your clients, hoping they'll make the error to not check the price per kilogram, that they'll make the error to take the product "designed" for their gender, that they'll make the error to assume the newer K50 camera is better than the K30, induce them in error with marketing that the expensive clothes are better than the cheap one while in practice this is the same... That trying to deceive their brain to see when they don't remember that you are trying to deceive as most as you can and they should check every single bit of thing they buy from you extensively...

This is funny how we find ethical to abuse people that are not smart enough, that are not methodic enough, that are too trustfull, that are simply tired at that moment how this doesn't count... But if a merchant make an error when putting a price then benefiting of it is not ethical.
I would just say that I usually apply the Golden Rule to these situations. I suppose if a company is large enough they can absorb losses that come from a pricing mistake. On the other hand, if it is a family business with small revenues than such a mistake, if enough people took advantage of it could seriously harm the company.

If there are companies that are not honest in their relationships with their customers, then that is a problem. There used to be camera sellers in New York that would advertise super-low prices and then would keep you on the phone for a long time trying to sell you UV filters, etc that you didn't need. If you refused all of their add ons, then they would tell you that the model you wanted wasn't available. Obviously in that situation, the low price is not honest, but rather a deliberate deception to hook a customer and then up sell them a bunch of extraneous stuff.

In the United States, if a business lists a price as a mistake, they just cancel the orders. It does happen and their reputation is not damaged, because most of us understand the concept of human error.
03-18-2016, 03:24 AM - 1 Like   #900
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I think one has to put in a word of caution here - I think people do actually understand this, but it's worth stating all the same: the K-1 wasn't made to compete with anybody - it was, as far as I can judge, made to give the best thought out FF High-IQ rather than specialist sports/action camera that they could produce at a price which would appeal to enough people. They knew here was enough pent up demand in the Pentax community to justify the project and that's where they focussed it. Other manufacturers, retailers, magazines might for their various reasons feel threatened or pit it against other offerings, but I honestly don't think that competition was in the minds on the designers to any greater extent than noting what others were offering and trying not to be wanting in those areas.
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