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03-17-2016, 05:14 PM   #886
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Yes, I saw the Pentaxeros spreadsheet some weeks ago.

There's a poster here who insists the K-1 competes with the D750, then says the K-1 is overpriced (a Strawman argument). The poster just won't accept the K-1 is Pentax's answer to the D810.
I believe the K1 competes against the D750 market, dont know the actual sales but i believe most D750 are being sold tha D810, the Spec sheet is likely on level or above the D810 (except Af, that is to be determined but im go Nikon)... The K1 price is for me aimed to the people who want a FF, all around camera and affordable; and dont have to many invest on other sistem and the current Pentax user base, and in that area the D750 works for the same reason to Canon and Pentax user....

03-17-2016, 05:35 PM   #887
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
But the K-1 is not a D810 competitor, don'cha know.


/sarc

I think some of us might have missed the /sarc-asm tag at the bottom and thought you were serious.
03-17-2016, 11:57 PM   #888
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I think some of us might have missed the /sarc-asm tag at the bottom and thought you were serious.
Problem is sarcasm or not, all theses camera are actual competitor. People will only buy one most likely and choose depending on many factors. Some may not care of 36MP and be happy with a FF that is just an FF, what the D600/D610 always targeted as well as A7: a cheap FF.

Some like the D750 that is still cheap and has good AF, because they consider that AF is an actually very useful feature and they are shooting subjects in difficult AF condition. They may not care of astro shoots or printing 40x60" were 36MP would make a difference...In camera body or in lens SR might not be a differentiator for them, except that for long lenses, in lenses is more comfortable to use... To me that a very consistant view and I don't see the issue to think that a D810 or a K-1 don't bring more useful feature to them.

With 1800$/2000€ entry point, the goal was clearly to target the cheap FF segment with a great set of features. And that well played except that of course in some market, the K-1 will not be that cheap. Well that how it is. In theses markets, the K-1 will still remains the most capable DSLR camera ever for outdoor/landscapes, but because it might not be a cheap camera it will still appeal to people after an outdoor/lanscape camera, maybe not that much after people after a price.


Sure we don't like it, but Canon/Nikon didn't sit when they saw the K-1, I understand that in Japan prices of Canikon FFs dropped quite a bit too, so even if K-1 is cheap, other FF camera are even cheaper or same price, even advanced ones. If nothing else, Pentax allowed the consumer of all brand to get more for less !
03-18-2016, 01:20 AM   #889
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote


Sure we don't like it, but Canon/Nikon didn't sit when they saw the K-1, I understand that in Japan prices of Canikon FFs dropped quite a bit too, so even if K-1 is cheap, other FF camera are even cheaper or same price, even advanced ones. If nothing else, Pentax allowed the consumer of all brand to get more for less !
In my country (Switzerland) the K-1 costs as much the D750 together with the Tamron 15-30..! (my next lens for the K-1) and has the same price as a D810. And for me It does not make a huge difference buying it from US or locally, its is almost same price. But i hope with my preorder to get the beast sooner
For a moment i did considered the D750+15-30 combo.. but the ergonomics, the solid body and my "little" lens collection kept me here

03-18-2016, 03:09 AM   #890
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Some way of maximizing profit are ethical. For example you provide more for your client at a cheap price so everybody buy from you, you get economy of scale, everybody happy.

Another way is to increase productivity and share the benefit on both side.

If you truely have different products that you can make easily that respond to different need same from the same machines and technology, you also have a nice way to ethically improve profit by serving more people. If also you provide a high end version that provide feature necessary to some people and that cost you more, it seems logical to ask for more...

Now playing on the notion of branding so you can ask more for the same product, or making a more expensive version of the extact same thing (K50 vs K30) and asking significantly more for it because it is newer, I don't find it that nice. Asking more for the exact same razor because it is advertized for womens instead of men and seeing that the bigger the shop, the more distance the 2 products can be, the bigger the price difference is because people are less likely to figure it out, I don't find it fair.... Asking more per kg for the familly pack than for the price at unit because people have a bias of thinking the familly pack that can save on wrapping will be cheaper is not ethical neither. The typical strategy to have appealing price for a few products that you know from behavioral studies people will tend to check price but asking for very high price for things people don't think to check, that's not ethical.

This is trying to deceive your clients, hoping they'll make the error to not check the price per kilogram, that they'll make the error to take the product "designed" for their gender, that they'll make the error to assume the newer K50 camera is better than the K30, induce them in error with marketing that the expensive clothes are better than the cheap one while in practice this is the same... That trying to deceive their brain to see when they don't remember that you are trying to deceive as most as you can and they should check every single bit of thing they buy from you extensively...

This is funny how we find ethical to abuse people that are not smart enough, that are not methodic enough, that are too trustfull, that are simply tired at that moment how this doesn't count... But if a merchant make an error when putting a price then benefiting of it is not ethical.
I would just say that I usually apply the Golden Rule to these situations. I suppose if a company is large enough they can absorb losses that come from a pricing mistake. On the other hand, if it is a family business with small revenues than such a mistake, if enough people took advantage of it could seriously harm the company.

If there are companies that are not honest in their relationships with their customers, then that is a problem. There used to be camera sellers in New York that would advertise super-low prices and then would keep you on the phone for a long time trying to sell you UV filters, etc that you didn't need. If you refused all of their add ons, then they would tell you that the model you wanted wasn't available. Obviously in that situation, the low price is not honest, but rather a deliberate deception to hook a customer and then up sell them a bunch of extraneous stuff.

In the United States, if a business lists a price as a mistake, they just cancel the orders. It does happen and their reputation is not damaged, because most of us understand the concept of human error.
03-18-2016, 03:24 AM - 1 Like   #891
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I think one has to put in a word of caution here - I think people do actually understand this, but it's worth stating all the same: the K-1 wasn't made to compete with anybody - it was, as far as I can judge, made to give the best thought out FF High-IQ rather than specialist sports/action camera that they could produce at a price which would appeal to enough people. They knew here was enough pent up demand in the Pentax community to justify the project and that's where they focussed it. Other manufacturers, retailers, magazines might for their various reasons feel threatened or pit it against other offerings, but I honestly don't think that competition was in the minds on the designers to any greater extent than noting what others were offering and trying not to be wanting in those areas.
03-18-2016, 03:52 AM   #892
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QuoteOriginally posted by ddamski Quote
In my country (Switzerland) the K-1 costs as much the D750 together with the Tamron 15-30..! (my next lens for the K-1) and has the same price as a D810. And for me It does not make a huge difference buying it from US or locally, its is almost same price. But i hope with my preorder to get the beast sooner
For a moment i did considered the D750+15-30 combo.. but the ergonomics, the solid body and my "little" lens collection kept me here
Nikon is extremely cheap in Switzerland €2100 for a D810 and €1364 for a D750. €3200 and €1950 in the Netherlands (except for some grey import no service stores). I would not pre-order it but wait until it hits the stores. Price might be a lot lower than €1999,-

Last edited by D1N0; 03-18-2016 at 03:57 AM.
03-18-2016, 12:43 PM   #893
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Let's not forget we have the pre-order prices right now. This is the max price the camera will ever have, in particular as such device follow the principle that you start at high price and drop pirce fast.

I sure soon we will be able to find the K-1 a bit cheap than the introduction price. Maybe 1500-1600$ in US, 1700-1800€ in europe. After next Christmas the price will drop even more. And I would expect the price to approach 1000$ at some point.

If you want your FF for a cheaper price, it really make sense to wait a bit more. Quite likely the price will be more interresting than Canikon offer.

03-18-2016, 01:04 PM   #894
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Let's not forget we have the pre-order prices right now. This is the max price the camera will ever have, in particular as such device follow the principle that you start at high price and drop pirce fast.

I sure soon we will be able to find the K-1 a bit cheap than the introduction price. Maybe 1500-1600$ in US, 1700-1800 in europe. After next Christmas the price will drop even more. And I would expect the price to approach 1000$ at some point.

If you want your FF for a cheaper price, it really make sense to wait a bit more. Quite likely the price will be more interresting than Canikon offer.
As many people here, i dont think that the price of the K1 falls that quickly.
03-18-2016, 01:25 PM   #895
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QuoteOriginally posted by virusn3t Quote
As many people here, i dont think that the price of the K1 falls that quickly.
All is in the definition of quick. The start is april anyway. Now will the K1 sell for $1000 before Christmas? Likely not, but you might find it at 1500$...Now will it be still around 1500-1800$ in 2 year, that very unlikely.

There no reason to expect to drop in price slower or faster than equivalent gear... In absolute terms for me, it mean if I want 2-3 years from know I would be able to buy a Pentax FF with lot of features for 1000-1200. 2 years ago what you got for that was a K3 and 2 years before that was a K5...

If you don't live for photography, basically it mean you go on a bit with life, you check back and you get much more for less ! Now if a few month look like a long time to you that's different.
03-18-2016, 01:27 PM   #896
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There is indeed no chance that K-1's price drop would be parallel/proportionnal as if it would be Pentax's APS-C flagship.

Unless its 1000 bucks launch price advantage would start some price-war answer from Canikon... which is unlikely...
03-18-2016, 01:34 PM   #897
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
All is in the definition of quick. The start is april anyway. Now will the K1 sell for $1000 before Christmas? Likely not, but you might find it at 1500$...Now will it be still around 1500-1800$ in 2 year, that very unlikely.

There no reason to expect to drop in price slower or faster than equivalent gear... In absolute terms for me, it mean if I want 2-3 years from know I would be able to buy a Pentax FF with lot of features for 1000-1200. 2 years ago what you got for that was a K3 and 2 years before that was a K5...

If you don't live for photography, basically it mean you go on a bit with life, you check back and you get much more for less ! Now if a few month look like a long time to you that's different.
Unless theres a lot of margin, i dont think the price of the K1 drop THAT fast, not that the price it wont fall. 1500usd is likely at a year or when the K1ii is close to appear, high end gear or any product with constant sales tend to maintain the price like the 645z, price are dropped but not 40% like 1800 to 1000usd
03-18-2016, 02:33 PM   #898
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I'll bet $2 to your €1 the K-1 body stays above $1,600 MAP for all of calendar 2016 and above $1,400 MAP for all of calendar 2017.*

* Black Friday - type specials excepted. US MAP prices.

Last edited by monochrome; 03-18-2016 at 02:38 PM.
03-18-2016, 02:55 PM   #899
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Agree. I do not think the price will drop as fast as other previous cameras. Three reasons, first I think they already priced it agressively, second demand will be high and continue longer than previous cameras, and third the life cycle on this camera will be nuch longer than aps-c bodies so no need to move them out to make room for the next model.
03-18-2016, 03:15 PM   #900
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How many times have we thought something and been wrong.. it tends to be we don't show the wrongs and like to point out the few times we are right.

Not that it really matters.. all these bets are worthless beyond watercooler type fun chatter.
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