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05-02-2016, 11:36 AM   #1351
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
And that brings me to a couple questions as a reality check for you:
The ship has sailt and K-1 it is. But for people with some nice glass that doesn't perform to it maximum on K-1 like 50-135 and 60-250 they have to think if investing in K-1 is their route. They can also stay with aps-c or invest in Nikon ff, since they have to start allover again.

The K-1 is already in stock in some places in Europe. Still people are waiting for the pre-order they have with a different store. My thinking is that the K-1 will be on the shelf by the end of may. Finding customers after the summer will be very difficult.

05-02-2016, 11:51 AM   #1352
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That is a total non sequitur! In no way does having some nice APS-C lenses lead to the nonsensical conclusion that you have to either buy more APS-C bodies or jump ship under the fallacy of having to start all over again. You can have your magical APS-H from the K-1, just ignore the unused sensor area! All it will cost you is the price of a K-1. And, with the added benefit of not having wait years, or not having to sell all your excellent DA lenses at a loss to buy a N*kon FF and re-invest in thousands of dollars of pricey N*kon FF glass. Winning! See, I'm there for you buddy!


Eric


QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
But for people with some nice glass that doesn't perform to it maximum on K-1 like 50-135 and 60-250 they have to think if investing in K-1 is their route. They can also stay with aps-c or invest in Nikon ff, since they have to start allover again.
05-02-2016, 12:06 PM   #1353
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To me it is very clear that for Pentax making an aps-h camera would be the better choice.
Yes and no. The concept of APSH 24Mpixels (D500 style camera with better IQ), is really appealing for some users, and also could be a very smart business decision if introduced at the right time, and technically could reuse of lot of the K3 type cameras (image processor etc). But, there are some issues. First, the AF of APSC lenses is sluggish, so they'd also need to redesign the lenses AF. Second, who makes APSH sensors without having to pay for a full development? Third, how many resources do they have to deliver a FF camera that many were waiting for to use their old K lenses on it, AND deliver an APSH camera in the meantime, too much to swallow for Pentax IMHO. If K-3II would have been APSH it would have been super (resolving some of the shortcomings of the K3) and making FF transition smooth regarding the immediate need of new format lenses. They struggled like hell to deliver a FF, so I don't really see how they could have squeezed an APSH in between.

---------- Post added 02-05-16 at 21:19 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
My thinking is that the K-1 will be on the shelf by the end of may. Finding customers after the summer will be very difficult.
K-1 is / going to sell pretty strong from a bubble inflated during two years of marketing tease, then some people will still buy because they are waiting to see a bit of price drop and initial bugs fixed, and then it will go back to traditional Pentax sales rate (proportional to market share). But you don't know, I guess, now that the K-1 design is finished, Ricoh engineers are already working on something else, can be APSH, can be a stripped down FF version, can be a next generation APSC camera, can be a mirrorless, who knows.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-02-2016 at 12:22 PM.
05-02-2016, 12:30 PM - 1 Like   #1354
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Let's not forget who insisted Pentax should cancel the K-1, as crowds were gathering with their wallets ready.

We presented him very solid arguments against the nonstandard format, over and over again. It's futile.

05-02-2016, 12:38 PM   #1355
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The difference is 1.22EV 0.5EV and that's a constant.

As much as people now rave about the K-1 and full frame image quality, as much they rave about D500 and how APSC "now" almost matches full frame.

It is more about wishful thinking than anything else. And the newest firmware for JPG processing.

Wrt raw quality, the best DxO low light score (ISO) for APSC currently is 1438 (D5500, 1235 for Pentax K-5II). According to Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting , the D500 scores 30% better which would be closer to 1900 (personally, I expect it to score around 1600) and in line with the best full frame scores, scaled to APSC.
The constant indeed is log(864/370)/log(2) that is rougly 1.22, I agree.

But the sensors used and the electronics are different. There no constant or law or whatever that explain that sensor performance variation thanks to different technologies have to be +/-0.5EV.

The difference between a K3-II (latest Pentax APSC) and A7s (best FF reviewed by DxO to date) is 1.74EV for Snr18%. So that would still be 1.22EV +/- 0.5EV...

But if we look at the dynamic range, the A7S maintain 8 bit of dynamic range at 45000 isos while on K3 it is 7000. That 2.6EV of difference, quite far from the +/-0.5EV. For the tonal range at 6 bits, we are at 1.83EV...

DxO does raw mesurement, not JPEG so that not the JPEG engine.

Pentax explained how they optimized their FF to use the right substrate, reduce noise and get the best possible results. If their research gave then even just 0.5EV gain compared to what they does on the K3-II, I really want that for the next APSC. And if it is combined with a modern sensor like the Sony one, this maybe grow to 0.7-0.8 EV. Whatever you might think that would be significant improvement, well worth to take...
05-02-2016, 02:20 PM   #1356
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Pentax explained how they optimized their FF to use the right substrate, reduce noise and get the best possible results.
According to recent publications from ISSCC, and patent here: https://www.google.com/patents/US6853044. Biasing the sensor substrate with other than 0V (refer to latest ISSCC design conference papers) allows more dynamic range without exceeding the breakdown voltage of the PIN junctions. I think it was likely implemented on some of the latest APSC DSLR. But if the same technique is applied to FF sensors, then you are back to square 1, the difference between the better APSC sensor and the better FF sensor remains the same.
05-02-2016, 02:20 PM   #1357
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The vignetting on the 50-135 is rectangular. Why is that? I think it is full frame but there is something in the way. uhhhh huhhhh.
05-02-2016, 02:25 PM   #1358
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
The vignetting on the 50-135 is rectangular. Why is that? I think it is full frame but there is something in the way. uhhhh huhhhh.
The lens hood?

05-02-2016, 02:32 PM   #1359
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
The lens hood?
I was about to ask the same question.

It is not an FF lens, that's for sure.
05-02-2016, 02:56 PM   #1360
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Some food for thoughts: Fuji uses Sony sensors and changes the filter to a non Bayer one but the sensor itself is usual Sony. See the price difference?

Now let's make a custom Pentax only Aps-H and ask ourselves why on earth does it cost 2x a FF sensor price.

The FF adds on ApsH and throws nothing. Furthermore it adds little (reality) and stupidly nothing (marketing-wise) and lastly, a lot of APS lenses would NOT be compatible. Yeah, SR here we are.

What an excellent way of losing on EVERY points.
05-02-2016, 03:50 PM   #1361
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
There no constant or law or whatever that explain that sensor performance variation thanks to different technologies have to be +/-0.5EV.
Correct.

0.5EV was a ballpark figure which seems to be rather accurate today (wrt 18% gray noise). It used to be larger in the past and will aproach 0EV in the future, as we approach the limits of physical feasibility.

And as I explained some time ago, please forget that "substrate" nonsense.
05-02-2016, 03:58 PM   #1362
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QuoteOriginally posted by MarkJerling Quote
The lens hood?
Doesn't look like the hood to me:
05-02-2016, 04:32 PM   #1363
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Doesn't look like the hood to me:
Does t have a baffle at the rear of the lens?

http://www.photoclubalpha.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/70300gmount.jpg
05-02-2016, 05:05 PM   #1364
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The DA*50-135 is definitely not a full frame lens. There probably is a baffle on the rear end.
05-02-2016, 06:01 PM   #1365
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
The DA*50-135 is definitely not a full frame lens. There probably is a baffle on the rear end.
I do not believe the DA 50-135 has a baffle at the rear. And, without the lens hood, the vignetting will be regular round. That lens does not have a huge amount of vignetting, so - most likely - it's that lovely deep hood on the front.
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