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05-02-2016, 06:00 AM   #1351
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QuoteOriginally posted by gorme Quote
You're right about the exporure time and sensor of D810. About the jpeg, I usually download their Raw files instead of just looking at the jpeg. I would say that 25600ISO seems still fine in my eyes for a web use
It is even for some other uses with a little post. About as good as iso 6400 on my K-5 I would say.

05-02-2016, 07:57 AM   #1352
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
It is even for some other uses with a little post. About as good as iso 6400 on my K-5 I would say.
That's why we really need the manufacturers to get their act together and give us an APSC body with as good electronics and software for noise management. There 1.1EV between APSC and FF, not 2. But between K5 or K3 on one side and K1, D810, A7R-II or D5 on the other side there 1.5-2EV difference.

That mean we should at least get 0.5EV on the next APSC body, maybe 1EV. Imagine the comfort for all the birders and wildlife shooter... A 55-300 will become as usable as a 60-250 f/4 or 100-300 f/4, at least when light is the limiting factor... So quite often. Imagine also indoor shots, we would get the performance on the next APSC as you get today on a 5D and not far from basic A7... f/2.8 would become quite comfortable in low light instead of being the minimum acceptable.
05-02-2016, 09:53 AM - 1 Like   #1353
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
That's why we really need the manufacturers to get their act together and give us an APSC body with as good electronics and software for noise management. There 1.1EV between APSC and FF, not 2. But between K5 or K3 on one side and K1, D810, A7R-II or D5 on the other side there 1.5-2EV difference.
The difference is 1.22EV ▒0.5EV and that's a constant.

As much as people now rave about the K-1 and full frame image quality, as much they rave about D500 and how APSC "now" almost matches full frame.

It is more about wishful thinking than anything else. And the newest firmware for JPG processing.

Wrt raw quality, the best DxO low light score (ISO) for APSC currently is 1438 (D5500, 1235 for Pentax K-5II). According to Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting , the D500 scores 30% better which would be closer to 1900 (personally, I expect it to score around 1600) and in line with the best full frame scores, scaled to APSC.

Last edited by falconeye; 05-02-2016 at 10:01 AM.
05-02-2016, 09:56 AM   #1354
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
No reliable source.
They compare JPG, accept different exposure times for the same ISO level, and state that D810 and D800 share the same image sensor which they do not. Having said this, it may well be the K-1 beats D810. The D800E does too in terms of noise (by a tiny margin).
I still haven't see any evidence that the D810 / D800 sensors are not the same or at most different millÚsimes of the same thing (the main difference is in the filters mounted on it but the sensor itself has very similar specs) and I suppose the K1 sensor to be the third millÚsime.

05-02-2016, 10:00 AM   #1355
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QuoteOriginally posted by Glorfindelrb Quote
I still haven't see any evidence that the D810 / D800 sensors are not the same or at most different millÚsimes of the same thing (the main difference is in the filters mounted on it but the sensor itself has very similar specs) and I suppose the K1 sensor to be the third millÚsime.
I had to look up "millÚsimes" - it means "vintages", yes?
05-02-2016, 10:39 AM   #1356
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If Ricoh had released a K-100 flagship APSC on the very same day as the K-1 FF, like N*kon did with the D5 and D500, I think it might be a more valid discussion.

But as it stands, I'm guessing there are a lot of people like me, who have been sitting on an older K-5 classic, were sorely tempted by the K5IIs, but skipped it and the K3, K3II, and are ready for an upgrade finally... I've been on the upgrade wagon since the original *ist... DS, K10...K20...K7...K5... So I needed some time off from the insanity. Especially since some of those updates were pretty disappointing, I really didn't want to give up a reasonably good thing, and stayed with the K5.

DxO scores are nice, but really only tell part of the story, otherwise C*non would have gone out business by now. Some photographers style fits in line with slightly less dynamic range. Lot's of pro's made plenty of money over the years shooting with sensors that didn't max out the DR charts. So, while I really really really like the way Pentax engineers squeeze out the last drop of quality from a sensor, I don't hang my purchase choices exclusively on some websites test scores.

I have wanted FF from my first *ist because I came from shooting film, and not just 35mm, but 120mm and 4x5. Mostly a hobby now, but I still enjoy using capable equipment. Now that I am finally feeling ready to upgrade again, I just want the latest fastest AF and best low noise option in a fresh K mount body with a pro-level high durability shutter, and for my wants, the K-1 is really the only upgrade path. It doesn't hurt that a lot of us have some FF glass waiting in the wings to put to use either.

Also, by getting a K-1, you know that it is new, and that means it will see at least a few firmware updates before it is abandoned for the next great thing, so it will only get better over time, as long as no major defects crop up.

Eric


QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The difference is 1.22EV ▒0.5EV and that's a constant.

As much as people now rave about the K-1 and full frame image quality, as much they rave about D500 and how APSC "now" almost matches full frame.

It is more about wishful thinking than anything else. And the newest firmware for JPG processing.

Wrt raw quality, the best DxO low light score (ISO) for APSC currently is 1438 (D5500, 1235 for Pentax K-5II). According to Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting , the D500 scores 30% better which would be closer to 1900 (personally, I expect it to score around 1600) and in line with the best full frame scores, scaled to APSC.
05-02-2016, 10:51 AM   #1357
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For some years I stated that making an aps-h sensored camera would be the way to stand out and make a good top tier camera.

A Belgium member of pentaxian made these images with da*50-135 to see how it can be used.
http://www.astapix.be/indextest.html

To me it is very clear that for Pentax making an aps-h camera would be the better choice. Lenses like da*50-135 and da*60-250 would perform great on it. Now making a move towards the K-1 is very expensive, you need new lenses and have to invest more. That limits the sales of K-1.
05-02-2016, 11:02 AM - 2 Likes   #1358
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Oh no, nonsense again.

05-02-2016, 11:19 AM   #1359
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It's pretty obvious, at least to me, that if Pentax started TODAY on your wish for an APS-H format DSLR, it would prolly be 3 or 4 years to your doorstep. Partly because there is no current APS-H sensor to buy from Sony (unless you want some ancient C*non senors?), which means tooling up for a custom run, testing, then selling some to Ricoh.


And that brings me to a couple questions as a reality check for you:


What do you think this flagship APS-H DSLR would cost by then?
What do you think the K-1 will be discounted down to by then?


See where I am going?


Chances are, if there is another APS-C in the pipeline, it's probably going to have K-1 features with an APS-C sensor, and prolly won't hear about it for another year would be my guess.
If you want to hold your breath a while longer, that is up to you.


Eric


QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
For some years I stated that making an aps-h sensored camera would be the way to stand out and make a good top tier camera.

A Belgium member of pentaxian made these images with da*50-135 to see how it can be used.
http://www.astapix.be/indextest.html

To me it is very clear that for Pentax making an aps-h camera would be the better choice. Lenses like da*50-135 and da*60-250 would perform great on it. Now making a move towards the K-1 is very expensive, you need new lenses and have to invest more. That limits the sales of K-1.
05-02-2016, 11:29 AM   #1360
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APS-H is a bit of a unicorn, that nowadays only Sigma has put off it's hat only to be able to sell a maximum of their own mount lenses....
And in the kind of desperate hope to compare the results to medium format...
05-02-2016, 11:36 AM   #1361
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
And that brings me to a couple questions as a reality check for you:
The ship has sailt and K-1 it is. But for people with some nice glass that doesn't perform to it maximum on K-1 like 50-135 and 60-250 they have to think if investing in K-1 is their route. They can also stay with aps-c or invest in Nikon ff, since they have to start allover again.

The K-1 is already in stock in some places in Europe. Still people are waiting for the pre-order they have with a different store. My thinking is that the K-1 will be on the shelf by the end of may. Finding customers after the summer will be very difficult.
05-02-2016, 11:51 AM   #1362
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That is a total non sequitur! In no way does having some nice APS-C lenses lead to the nonsensical conclusion that you have to either buy more APS-C bodies or jump ship under the fallacy of having to start all over again. You can have your magical APS-H from the K-1, just ignore the unused sensor area! All it will cost you is the price of a K-1. And, with the added benefit of not having wait years, or not having to sell all your excellent DA lenses at a loss to buy a N*kon FF and re-invest in thousands of dollars of pricey N*kon FF glass. Winning! See, I'm there for you buddy!


Eric


QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
But for people with some nice glass that doesn't perform to it maximum on K-1 like 50-135 and 60-250 they have to think if investing in K-1 is their route. They can also stay with aps-c or invest in Nikon ff, since they have to start allover again.
05-02-2016, 12:06 PM   #1363
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
To me it is very clear that for Pentax making an aps-h camera would be the better choice.
Yes and no. The concept of APSH 24Mpixels (D500 style camera with better IQ), is really appealing for some users, and also could be a very smart business decision if introduced at the right time, and technically could reuse of lot of the K3 type cameras (image processor etc). But, there are some issues. First, the AF of APSC lenses is sluggish, so they'd also need to redesign the lenses AF. Second, who makes APSH sensors without having to pay for a full development? Third, how many resources do they have to deliver a FF camera that many were waiting for to use their old K lenses on it, AND deliver an APSH camera in the meantime, too much to swallow for Pentax IMHO. If K-3II would have been APSH it would have been super (resolving some of the shortcomings of the K3) and making FF transition smooth regarding the immediate need of new format lenses. They struggled like hell to deliver a FF, so I don't really see how they could have squeezed an APSH in between.

---------- Post added 02-05-16 at 21:19 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
My thinking is that the K-1 will be on the shelf by the end of may. Finding customers after the summer will be very difficult.
K-1 is / going to sell pretty strong from a bubble inflated during two years of marketing tease, then some people will still buy because they are waiting to see a bit of price drop and initial bugs fixed, and then it will go back to traditional Pentax sales rate (proportional to market share). But you don't know, I guess, now that the K-1 design is finished, Ricoh engineers are already working on something else, can be APSH, can be a stripped down FF version, can be a next generation APSC camera, can be a mirrorless, who knows.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 05-02-2016 at 12:22 PM.
05-02-2016, 12:30 PM - 1 Like   #1364
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Let's not forget who insisted Pentax should cancel the K-1, as crowds were gathering with their wallets ready.

We presented him very solid arguments against the nonstandard format, over and over again. It's futile.
05-02-2016, 12:38 PM   #1365
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
The difference is 1.22EV ▒0.5EV and that's a constant.

As much as people now rave about the K-1 and full frame image quality, as much they rave about D500 and how APSC "now" almost matches full frame.

It is more about wishful thinking than anything else. And the newest firmware for JPG processing.

Wrt raw quality, the best DxO low light score (ISO) for APSC currently is 1438 (D5500, 1235 for Pentax K-5II). According to Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting , the D500 scores 30% better which would be closer to 1900 (personally, I expect it to score around 1600) and in line with the best full frame scores, scaled to APSC.
The constant indeed is log(864/370)/log(2) that is rougly 1.22, I agree.

But the sensors used and the electronics are different. There no constant or law or whatever that explain that sensor performance variation thanks to different technologies have to be +/-0.5EV.

The difference between a K3-II (latest Pentax APSC) and A7s (best FF reviewed by DxO to date) is 1.74EV for Snr18%. So that would still be 1.22EV +/- 0.5EV...

But if we look at the dynamic range, the A7S maintain 8 bit of dynamic range at 45000 isos while on K3 it is 7000. That 2.6EV of difference, quite far from the +/-0.5EV. For the tonal range at 6 bits, we are at 1.83EV...

DxO does raw mesurement, not JPEG so that not the JPEG engine.

Pentax explained how they optimized their FF to use the right substrate, reduce noise and get the best possible results. If their research gave then even just 0.5EV gain compared to what they does on the K3-II, I really want that for the next APSC. And if it is combined with a modern sensor like the Sony one, this maybe grow to 0.7-0.8 EV. Whatever you might think that would be significant improvement, well worth to take...
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