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05-03-2016, 12:59 AM   #1381
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Oh boy, not again!
1. what makes you think that a custom made sensor is cheaper than a slightly larger but off the shelf, previous generation sensor?
2. the K-1 is not much larger than a K-3. It's also 225g heavier, but part of it is due to features unrelated to sensor size - e.g. the flexible tilt mechanism. Let's say a 50-100g saving?
Whatever theoretical advantage, it's irrelevant. Please stop promoting a bad idea.

05-03-2016, 02:27 AM   #1382
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The size increments are small enough today. Canon left the middle increment between 1,6 and FF for a reason. I expect the MF 44x33mm format to vanish too, like APS-H, in favour of something with a more notable difference. For instance 53,7 x 40,4 mm.

Having many small increments reduces the mass production economic advantages. I think that if the whole digital imaging era was restarted today without any legacy compatibility, there would be larger increments (2x), none of the different sensor sizes would share mount (like APS-C and FF does now) and the focal flange distance and flange diameter would scale in increments, in the same order as their sensor sizes does. And very wishful thinking, all the camera companies would agree on the same mount (mechanical and electronic) for the same sensor size, and not limit anyone from making official specced AF lenses. That would result in fantastic free and healthy competition, like the virtual goal of capitalism, but of course, that would be a nightmare for the camera companies if they had to compete harder. They think they are better off by sitting alone on each their proprietary Islands and don't cooperate with any other company. Sorry I drifted into politics and hypothetical alternative worlds. Right here and now, APS-H is dead and thats a good thing. Next up is the 44x33 format. Then maybe the 1" format in favour of a new 1/2" format meant for phones and other thin devices. Yes, I believe lens mounts are coming that way sooner or later.
05-03-2016, 02:40 AM   #1383
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Oh boy, not again!
1. what makes you think that a custom made sensor is cheaper than a slightly larger but off the shelf, previous generation sensor?
2. the K-1 is not much larger than a K-3. It's also 225g heavier, but part of it is due to features unrelated to sensor size - e.g. the flexible tilt mechanism. Let's say a 50-100g saving?
Whatever theoretical advantage, it's irrelevant. Please stop promoting a bad idea.
Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent.

The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands.
05-03-2016, 02:49 AM   #1384
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent.

The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands.
I don't really buy that there is any particular advantage to APS-H, assuming that you have the same pixel density. The only reason it gets brought up is because there are a very small number of lenses that Pentax makes that might be OK on APS-H but would not be OK on full frame, I suppose particularly with regard to image stabilization. Costs savings between the two would likely be non-existent, as no other mainstream company is using APS-H and Pentax would actually have small enough volumes to make cost be higher than for full frame sensor. Size differences between it and full frame are probably minimal as well.

For some reason Ron keeps bringing it up, even though it is clear that the K-1 is what Pentax has released and that Pentaxians (and maybe others) are excited by it and ordering it in droves.

05-03-2016, 03:05 AM   #1385
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They could've given Ron an APS-H-crop-mode for the K-1, though! On the other hand, maybe Ron could just custom-order a focussing screen with the APS-H rectangle etched in?
05-03-2016, 03:13 AM   #1386
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent.

The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands.
Nobody?
No, APS-H was not "a more significant consideration for Pentax", or rather I doubt they were considering it at all. Pentax realized very well that what we're asking them to do, what we want - and what the competition offers - is this so-called full frame, not an intermediary format. And Pentax could see what happened to Olympus and to their slightly smaller 4/3.

Making a full frame SR without increasing the size of the mechanism was a challenge - one among many - but they managed. It was considered an obstacle only by people here, so ready to claim that it can't possibly work (despite Sony having a workable solution since the A900).
They're talking a bit about it here: Challengers | PENTAX K-1 Special site | RICOH IMAGING
05-03-2016, 03:27 AM - 3 Likes   #1387
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Just crop to APS-H
I can't it will superimpose Ron's face on the pic.
05-03-2016, 06:04 AM   #1388
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
For some reason Ron keeps bringing it up, even though it is clear that the K-1 is what Pentax has released and that Pentaxians (and maybe others) are excited by it and ordering it in droves.
Well the line of people buying the K-1 isn't to long. Only one shop has stock, others have still some people waiting for their K-1 to come (overhere they had to pay 125 euro for pre-order and are locked in). They have K-1 in stock since last thursday http://www.fotobooms.nl/detail/0/505/512/0/24422/Pentax-K-1-body.html And no one is coming in. Aparently all people wanting the K-1 have pre ordered overhere.

05-03-2016, 06:25 AM - 1 Like   #1389
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If the line of people buying a product we insistently requested isn't too long, how long do you think it would be, for a product only you and - perhaps - bxf are requesting?
05-03-2016, 11:01 AM   #1390
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
Just so that we are clear, I made this one up. But, German does have some words that translate to an entire phrase in English.
I understand that the longest word in the world is the German word for the left-hand collar button on the steamboat captain's windbreaker.....

John

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05-03-2016, 11:12 AM - 1 Like   #1391
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QuoteOriginally posted by PALADIN85020 Quote


I understand that the longest word in the world is the German word for the left-hand collar button on the steamboat captain's windbreaker.....

John
Given that the German word for right (rechts) is longer than the one for left (links), I am skeptical
05-03-2016, 11:27 AM   #1392
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well the line of people buying the K-1 isn't to long. Only one shop has stock, others have still some people waiting for their K-1 to come (overhere they had to pay 125 euro for pre-order and are locked in). They have K-1 in stock since last thursday http://www.fotobooms.nl/detail/0/505/512/0/24422/Pentax-K-1-body.html And no one is coming in. Aparently all people wanting the K-1 have pre ordered overhere.
ApsH would be bought by you only but you dont get it do you?

---------- Post added 03-05-16 at 19:28 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
This ignores the theoretical advantages of APS-H viz-a-viz FF:

1. smaller, therefore cheaper sensor
Wrong.
05-03-2016, 12:24 PM   #1393
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Well the line of people buying the K-1 isn't to long. Only one shop has stock, others have still some people waiting for their K-1 to come (overhere they had to pay 125 euro for pre-order and are locked in). They have K-1 in stock since last thursday http://www.fotobooms.nl/detail/0/505/512/0/24422/Pentax-K-1-body.html And no one is coming in. Aparently all people wanting the K-1 have pre ordered overhere.
Do you not read these forums? Plenty of members have already spent big money and are being wowed by their K-1 right now. They wanted 35mm.

Your APS-H suggestion needs to go the way of Esperanto.

Last edited by clackers; 05-03-2016 at 12:35 PM.
05-03-2016, 12:50 PM   #1394
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APS-H would have ruled out most prod and made everybody thinking that Pentax can't do FF. For lenses it make no sense, already many APSC lenses are FF design anyway and Pentax want to sell lenses, not to give you an excuse to keep using your old APSC lens on its FF longer than the time for your to collect some money to replace it.
05-03-2016, 01:00 PM   #1395
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
The size increments are small enough today. Canon left the middle increment between 1,6 and FF for a reason. I expect the MF 44x33mm format to vanish too, like APS-H, in favour of something with a more notable difference. For instance 53,7 x 40,4 mm.

Having many small increments reduces the mass production economic advantages. I think that if the whole digital imaging era was restarted today without any legacy compatibility, there would be larger increments (2x), none of the different sensor sizes would share mount (like APS-C and FF does now) and the focal flange distance and flange diameter would scale in increments, in the same order as their sensor sizes does. And very wishful thinking, all the camera companies would agree on the same mount (mechanical and electronic) for the same sensor size, and not limit anyone from making official specced AF lenses. That would result in fantastic free and healthy competition, like the virtual goal of capitalism, but of course, that would be a nightmare for the camera companies if they had to compete harder. They think they are better off by sitting alone on each their proprietary Islands and don't cooperate with any other company. Sorry I drifted into politics and hypothetical alternative worlds. Right here and now, APS-H is dead and thats a good thing. Next up is the 44x33 format. Then maybe the 1" format in favour of a new 1/2" format meant for phones and other thin devices. Yes, I believe lens mounts are coming that way sooner or later.
I wonder if you give prevision ot if you just want you dream to become reality ?

There no technical reason for different mount. No more than there reason to prevent your car to use tire of different companies.

If companies do that, it is only to protect their own investment and network. They all hope that if you invest into a body and want to upgrade to better lenses, you'll start to spend some money on lenses and then would be relunctant to buy the next camera in another rmount. It is a barrier to exist and to keep the client captive.

Also, if you don't share the mount among different sensor size, you remove an obvious upgrade path and people are as likely to upgrade to another brand. Even a cheap prime can typically still work on FF and people can schedule their upgrade path. They get the impression they save doing this way. That's another reason to stay: there a way to get better gear progressively because you are part of an ecosystem.

So no, they would not do that.
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