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05-10-2016, 10:22 AM   #1441
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I was at the dentist today. Some waiting time and I looked into Harper's Bazaar magazine. Full of images, and most of them are comercial images for some kind of product (dress, clock, parfume. ...). There are maybe some images in made with Hasselblad or Phase One. Most of them are made with a full frame camera (so there is a bright future for K-1). All these images have got intensive work done in some computerprogram to make them look excellent. That is also where the most image quality enhancement can be made next to having a great camera. The work flow with files from pixelshift is way to complex to be used in any professional way. There is enough room to work with an image inside the DNG raw file that the K-1 and other camera's provider.

So there is maybe some use for pixelshift, but outside of hobby photography I don't see it getting popular. For the amature it probably is something for a few users.

---------- Post added 10-05-16 at 19:25 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
A "gimmick" enhancing your pictures up to medium format level in terms of colour rendering and dynamic range... and improving it substancially for noise and artefacts...


Yeah, K-01 is good enough
.
I would say for almost everything, as long as it doesn't move.

05-10-2016, 10:49 AM   #1442
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All those images were made with cameras costing significantly more money using workflow creates before the advent of Full Frame Poxel Shift. Let's wait and see what develops.
05-10-2016, 12:05 PM   #1443
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
All those images were made with cameras costing significantly more money using workflow creates before the advent of Full Frame Poxel Shift. Let's wait and see what develops.
That is the thing. Costing much more......

Look...

So basicly the Sony is the sharper lens, but costing twice the Pentax......

Once you are paying the person working with images, you have very quickly earned back your money on the purchase of the lens.
05-10-2016, 12:17 PM   #1444
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
There is a large number of photographers who work in architectural photography. Interior designers, architects, home builders, and commercial contractors all hire architectural photographers to create images. Pixel shift is the perfect feature for this type of photography. Ricoh just need to release the right lens for this type of work.
I get the tilt shift, I don't get the PS honestly... To me it would mean that theses standard 36MP are not enough, that 300dpi with A2 and 150dpi with A0 is not enough...

I don't see all the guys in theses businesses spending their time giving magnifying glass to their clients and say: "The flat may be terrible or this interior design sucks, but look how you can see the fine details on this print... Really you should buy from us... if anything we have higher resolution pictures !".

Really nobody care except the photographer.

05-10-2016, 12:36 PM   #1445
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
If you plan to print like 100" wide and expect people to stare at it from near distance, nitpicking on picture quality, yeah it will make a difference. Other than that... well, I don't really see the need.

Amazon give me websize picture for what I buy. If I buy a magazine, ads are like maybe 8x12", at best 12x16" where I'll never see the difference between 8 and 36MP already.

Even if I get a high end catalogue for some product that may cost 50K€, even a car, I may get an A4 brochure in the end. Simply because manipulating A0 or even A2 material is not practical.

If I go to cinema, standard is 4K, 8MP...

While the actual technical achievment is interresting, while you can use it on some occcasion (already quite limited). The time were it will make an actual difference to the final product: the ads in a magazine, the actual printed photo on a wall are almost immaterial.
Perhaps, and perhaps not, Nicolas. The fact remains, it's a clever feature that is available for those who want to use it. I'm sure there are fine art photographers for whom pixel shift is very useful

From your earlier post you said "nobody cares except for the photographer". You could well be right, but if the photographer cares, the capability is more than justified

Last edited by BigMackCam; 05-10-2016 at 01:18 PM.
05-10-2016, 01:05 PM - 1 Like   #1446
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I don't get the PS honestly...
Pentax's PS is not just, or mainly, about resolution. It does away with the Bayer interpolation step. The color signal at every pixel is a directly measured value using PS*.

Without PS, the color signal for 2 out of 3 colors at every single pixel is a guess**. Which would you rather have, a picture with 2/3 of the color information a guess, or direct measurement of all color data?

* PS implementations other than Pentax's (e.g. Olympus') may not have this advantage.

** Granted the Bayer interpolation probably gives a good guess in many cases, but it is not a direct measurement.
05-10-2016, 01:30 PM   #1447
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
That is the thing. Costing much more......

Look...
https://youtu.be/F_u1_RfLRTE

So basicly the Sony is the sharper lens, but costing twice the Pentax......

Once you are paying the person working with images, you have very quickly earned back your money on the purchase of the lens.
But you made an assertion about dSLR workflow, not Mirrorless lenses. How are the two related?
05-10-2016, 02:27 PM   #1448
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I get the tilt shift, I don't get the PS honestly... To me it would mean that theses standard 36MP are not enough, that 300dpi with A2 and 150dpi with A0 is not enough...

I don't see all the guys in theses businesses spending their time giving magnifying glass to their clients and say: "The flat may be terrible or this interior design sucks, but look how you can see the fine details on this print... Really you should buy from us... if anything we have higher resolution pictures !".

Really nobody care except the photographer.
I work with people who do care or they wouldn't pay me. This is not simply about resolution. We are talking about a 2EV improvement. We are talking about better color accuracy. I was at a 13,000sqft house today where the interior designer flew in from San Diego (4 hour flight) just for this meeting at this house. The interior and exterior photography package will be over $6,000. The house won't get staged and the landscaping won't be ready until spring of 2017 and they are already 18 months into construction.

We are not talking about $600 wedding packages. We are talking about people who really care about the little details. I have not shot interiors and architectural since before the recession in 2008, but I use to work with the builder a good bit and if Ricoh has the right gear I will price the project for him. I was shooting Canon at the time and renting a T/S lens when I needed it. The K-1 is really the perfect camera for this type of work. I just need the prefect lens.

05-10-2016, 03:14 PM   #1449
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The interior and exterior photography package will be over $6,000.
Interesting. For that kind of $ the customer will have justifiably high expectations.
05-10-2016, 03:44 PM   #1450
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I may be stupid, I get the improvement without PS, but for the test with PS, how offen do you guy plan to use pixel shift at iso 51200 when you already need tripod and stationnary subject ?

This make only sense on review and test to show how impressive this is. In everyday shooting, you will use pixel shift at iso 100. In theses conditions, D810 users are going to use their lower base iso at advantage meaning it is basically a draw for noise. Sure we still gain sharpness, for thoses 100" print were you stare with a manifying glass but the rest of the time? D810 is 300dpi at A2 (16x24") and 150dpi at A0 (32x48")... Except if you crop (and that defeat the idea of pixel shift carefully taken on tripod...) you will not really need it.

I still would appreciate the gain without pixel shift stated here. I didn't find it honestly when dowloading the raw from imaging resources and comparing so... I guess we need more comparison, more feedback from users before we can conclude.

Not that I care much to compare K1 to D810, it is more interresting to compare it to 645Z and K3 as I don't get why I should buy a D810 ???
Well, noise reduction is a welcome side effect but for me it's about rendering details better. I rarely go over iso 400.

Comparisons are indeed difficult, e.g. the dp test-image that I saw was focussed differently and had different lighting which wasn't helpful.
05-10-2016, 05:49 PM   #1451
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I get the tilt shift, I don't get the PS honestly... To me it would mean that theses standard 36MP are not enough, that 300dpi with A2 and 150dpi with A0 is not enough...
I don't understand your point.

"Everybody" is "constantly" striving for more detail, and yet you are dismissing the concept. If a new sensor became available today, with the quality of the PS, would you dismiss that as being unnecessary?
05-10-2016, 06:19 PM   #1452
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QuoteOriginally posted by sculptormic Quote
They/we need a TS lens for architecture. The Samyang is stopped down quiet good on the A7rII according to Forum member at getdpi who's judgement I trust.

In addition to the Samyang, Schneider do 50mm and 90mm tilt shift lenses in K-mount.
05-10-2016, 10:58 PM   #1453
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I work with people who do care or they wouldn't pay me. This is not simply about resolution. We are talking about a 2EV improvement. We are talking about better color accuracy. I was at a 13,000sqft house today where the interior designer flew in from San Diego (4 hour flight) just for this meeting at this house. The interior and exterior photography package will be over $6,000. The house won't get staged and the landscaping won't be ready until spring of 2017 and they are already 18 months into construction.

We are not talking about $600 wedding packages. We are talking about people who really care about the little details. I have not shot interiors and architectural since before the recession in 2008, but I use to work with the builder a good bit and if Ricoh has the right gear I will price the project for him. I was shooting Canon at the time and renting a T/S lens when I needed it. The K-1 is really the perfect camera for this type of work. I just need the prefect lens.
Man there 2 ways to look at it. Either what you did before 2008 was not that great. And not because of you as a photographer but because really the gear was too basic. Bad dynamic range, low resolution. Well what you provided in the end was not satisfying. Maybe it was the best of theses time, but not satisfying.

On the final product you delivered, the highlights were cliped, and your photos once printed or displayed on a screen basically looked soft. The colors? There was no color deph, it looked posterized.

Your client, while knowing they got the best available at that time clearly saw the flaws of your work and other photographers and basically, if you were to shoot again with the same gear, in today market the result would look so ancient, so low quality that nobody ever would want to pay for that.

In that case, then yes the gear make a difference.

Either the client was overall satisfied with the quality and you delivered great work. In that case, the new gear, while sure welcome may not be that important.
05-10-2016, 11:25 PM   #1454
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
But you made an assertion about dSLR workflow, not Mirrorless lenses. How are the two related?
They produce images at the same level of quality. Those who are interested in images don't care wich device is used.
05-10-2016, 11:33 PM   #1455
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
I don't understand your point.

"Everybody" is "constantly" striving for more detail, and yet you are dismissing the concept. If a new sensor became available today, with the quality of the PS, would you dismiss that as being unnecessary?
"Everybody" is relative. The camera market is shrinking every year. We are in a case of diminishing returns.

A 8MP is enough for most use because you can't basically see the whole picture and at the same time resolve smaller details than what a 8MP shot with you eyes. Even at cinema, for picture of 15meters wide, this is 4K, no more than 8MP. Many modern movies have 2K master for special effects. I don't see people complaining.

Added resolution serve for cropping, because we don't have real pixels but photosites (pixel shift try to solve that) and because (back in time) we had low pass filters. A standard 36MP is already very comfortable and I would expect that somebody that shoot on a tripod a still subject (pixel shift case) would select a low iso setting and avoid heavy crop anyway.

Imagine on the opposite the impact of 2EV dynamic range and noise level for widlife, wedding, action/sports, even for the average joe that want to shoot indoor or in low light for the birday of its son? So yes that would be huge. And even that I think would not be enough to drive the whole market up. This would only ampower the smaller cameras as due to diminishing return, the difference would be much more visible on smaller sensors, than on big expensive ones.
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