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05-10-2016, 03:44 PM   #1441
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I may be stupid, I get the improvement without PS, but for the test with PS, how offen do you guy plan to use pixel shift at iso 51200 when you already need tripod and stationnary subject ?

This make only sense on review and test to show how impressive this is. In everyday shooting, you will use pixel shift at iso 100. In theses conditions, D810 users are going to use their lower base iso at advantage meaning it is basically a draw for noise. Sure we still gain sharpness, for thoses 100" print were you stare with a manifying glass but the rest of the time? D810 is 300dpi at A2 (16x24") and 150dpi at A0 (32x48")... Except if you crop (and that defeat the idea of pixel shift carefully taken on tripod...) you will not really need it.

I still would appreciate the gain without pixel shift stated here. I didn't find it honestly when dowloading the raw from imaging resources and comparing so... I guess we need more comparison, more feedback from users before we can conclude.

Not that I care much to compare K1 to D810, it is more interresting to compare it to 645Z and K3 as I don't get why I should buy a D810 ???
Well, noise reduction is a welcome side effect but for me it's about rendering details better. I rarely go over iso 400.

Comparisons are indeed difficult, e.g. the dp test-image that I saw was focussed differently and had different lighting which wasn't helpful.

05-10-2016, 05:49 PM   #1442
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I get the tilt shift, I don't get the PS honestly... To me it would mean that theses standard 36MP are not enough, that 300dpi with A2 and 150dpi with A0 is not enough...
I don't understand your point.

"Everybody" is "constantly" striving for more detail, and yet you are dismissing the concept. If a new sensor became available today, with the quality of the PS, would you dismiss that as being unnecessary?
05-10-2016, 06:19 PM   #1443
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QuoteOriginally posted by sculptormic Quote
They/we need a TS lens for architecture. The Samyang is stopped down quiet good on the A7rII according to Forum member at getdpi who's judgement I trust.

In addition to the Samyang, Schneider do 50mm and 90mm tilt shift lenses in K-mount.
05-10-2016, 10:58 PM   #1444
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I work with people who do care or they wouldn't pay me. This is not simply about resolution. We are talking about a 2EV improvement. We are talking about better color accuracy. I was at a 13,000sqft house today where the interior designer flew in from San Diego (4 hour flight) just for this meeting at this house. The interior and exterior photography package will be over $6,000. The house won't get staged and the landscaping won't be ready until spring of 2017 and they are already 18 months into construction.

We are not talking about $600 wedding packages. We are talking about people who really care about the little details. I have not shot interiors and architectural since before the recession in 2008, but I use to work with the builder a good bit and if Ricoh has the right gear I will price the project for him. I was shooting Canon at the time and renting a T/S lens when I needed it. The K-1 is really the perfect camera for this type of work. I just need the prefect lens.
Man there 2 ways to look at it. Either what you did before 2008 was not that great. And not because of you as a photographer but because really the gear was too basic. Bad dynamic range, low resolution. Well what you provided in the end was not satisfying. Maybe it was the best of theses time, but not satisfying.

On the final product you delivered, the highlights were cliped, and your photos once printed or displayed on a screen basically looked soft. The colors? There was no color deph, it looked posterized.

Your client, while knowing they got the best available at that time clearly saw the flaws of your work and other photographers and basically, if you were to shoot again with the same gear, in today market the result would look so ancient, so low quality that nobody ever would want to pay for that.

In that case, then yes the gear make a difference.

Either the client was overall satisfied with the quality and you delivered great work. In that case, the new gear, while sure welcome may not be that important.

05-10-2016, 11:25 PM   #1445
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
But you made an assertion about dSLR workflow, not Mirrorless lenses. How are the two related?
They produce images at the same level of quality. Those who are interested in images don't care wich device is used.
05-10-2016, 11:33 PM   #1446
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QuoteOriginally posted by bxf Quote
I don't understand your point.

"Everybody" is "constantly" striving for more detail, and yet you are dismissing the concept. If a new sensor became available today, with the quality of the PS, would you dismiss that as being unnecessary?
"Everybody" is relative. The camera market is shrinking every year. We are in a case of diminishing returns.

A 8MP is enough for most use because you can't basically see the whole picture and at the same time resolve smaller details than what a 8MP shot with you eyes. Even at cinema, for picture of 15meters wide, this is 4K, no more than 8MP. Many modern movies have 2K master for special effects. I don't see people complaining.

Added resolution serve for cropping, because we don't have real pixels but photosites (pixel shift try to solve that) and because (back in time) we had low pass filters. A standard 36MP is already very comfortable and I would expect that somebody that shoot on a tripod a still subject (pixel shift case) would select a low iso setting and avoid heavy crop anyway.

Imagine on the opposite the impact of 2EV dynamic range and noise level for widlife, wedding, action/sports, even for the average joe that want to shoot indoor or in low light for the birday of its son? So yes that would be huge. And even that I think would not be enough to drive the whole market up. This would only ampower the smaller cameras as due to diminishing return, the difference would be much more visible on smaller sensors, than on big expensive ones.
05-11-2016, 12:28 AM   #1447
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You can just ignore the PS option those of you who don't need it. It's not that single shots are lacking something in the K-1, on the contrary. You can also don't ever use the lights that help you with night outdoor photography and use a head lamp. But this doesn't mean that these are useless or meaningless functions to anybody.

I found that I used the PS more than I could imagine and is a wonderful feature. It's just another ace in the sleeve of Pentax K-1. If you use it well you get the benefit of it and the results are awesome. I find it super useful for landscape photography and it turns "cheap" to acquire old manual lenses to super useful-high resolution tools that are difficult to tell the difference to contemporary expensive lenses on single shot captures.

05-11-2016, 12:32 AM - 1 Like   #1448
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
Those who are interested in images don't care wich device is used.
Again, you're generalising too much. I certainly care very much about image quality, and while I have both DSLR and mirrorless systems, I much, much prefer the OVFs of my Pentaxes and Nikons. While some photographers might not care which camera they use as long as they get good images, part of the equation is enjoying the tools one uses, especially as an amateur. I will only use mirrorless for my "serious" photography (if an amateur can indeed be serious in the sense that a professional might be), when DSLRs are dead and gone, which isn't going to happen in my lifetime.

05-11-2016, 03:01 AM   #1449
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I think whether or not you use pixel shift depends very much on the style of photo you shoot. I use it almost not at all when taking photos of my kids and quite a bit when I am shooting landscapes, when I am on a tripod. It definitely does improve color depth, dynamic range and sharpness and with the implementation on the K-1 artifacts are kept to a minimum.

But all of this misses the point. It is silly to argue about whether someone needs an f1.4 lens that is sharp wide open, or medium format resolution, or a small improvement in bokeh that you might see with a top end lens. There is a constant tension between good enough and better (and my personal budget) and whenever I can make my photos incrementally better without spending a bunch of money, I am in favor of that -- even if it takes a little extra time in post processing.

As others have said, if pixel shift isn't important to you, then that's fine. Don't use it. The K-1 is still an awesome camera with or without it.
05-11-2016, 03:02 AM   #1450
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
"Everybody" is relative. The camera market is shrinking every year. We are in a case of diminishing returns.

A 8MP is enough for most use because you can't basically see the whole picture and at the same time resolve smaller details than what a 8MP shot with you eyes. Even at cinema, for picture of 15meters wide, this is 4K, no more than 8MP. Many modern movies have 2K master for special effects. I don't see people complaining.

Added resolution serve for cropping, because we don't have real pixels but photosites (pixel shift try to solve that) and because (back in time) we had low pass filters. A standard 36MP is already very comfortable and I would expect that somebody that shoot on a tripod a still subject (pixel shift case) would select a low iso setting and avoid heavy crop anyway.

Imagine on the opposite the impact of 2EV dynamic range and noise level for widlife, wedding, action/sports, even for the average joe that want to shoot indoor or in low light for the birday of its son? So yes that would be huge. And even that I think would not be enough to drive the whole market up. This would only ampower the smaller cameras as due to diminishing return, the difference would be much more visible on smaller sensors, than on big expensive ones.
Typical example where small pictures are an advantage is photojournalism. Given the competition to sell pictures on big events, if you can process and send a good quality 8MPx four times faster than your competitor, you are more likely to sell it to newspapers and online news editions. Anyway for the online news, pictures are downsized to 400*600 or so

PS is an option, no one is forced to use it. I am sure that it will be usefull for some people doing Macro/Product photography and it is a nice option for Pentax users...
05-11-2016, 03:22 AM - 2 Likes   #1451
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There is just a real tendency for folks to get upset over features that photographers don't personally use. I seem to hear the most flack about video. But I have also heard aggravation at pixel shift, astro tracer, live view, and GPS. I'm just not sure why having those features on a camera would bother a person (even if they don't use them), if someone else can find a use for them...
05-11-2016, 03:46 AM   #1452
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QuoteOriginally posted by gorme Quote
A 8MP is enough for most use because you can't basically see the whole picture and at the same time resolve smaller details than what a 8MP shot with you eyes.
I's not always about seeing the whole picture, but discerning the detailed elements within the picture. Anyway, only the central part of the retina can resolve small detail, so if one is far enough back to see the whole of a picture, painting, landscape, whatever, you're not seeing the peripheries in any sort of resolution. That's why our eyes move about when we're looking at something. I'm personally happy with 36 Mpx, and would take more if I can get them. I love seeing pictures within pictures.
05-11-2016, 05:16 AM   #1453
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
They produce images at the same level of quality. Those who are interested in images don't care wich device is used.
And what does that have to do with the work flow of processing shifted images?
You said the work flow for processing PS images was too complex to be used professionally, then tried to substantiate it by pointing out what a great lens the Sony is.
Some apples taste better than others, but what does that have to do with the work flow of pruducing a pie?
05-11-2016, 05:48 AM   #1454
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Man there 2 ways to look at it. Either what you did before 2008 was not that great. And not because of you as a photographer but because really the gear was too basic. Bad dynamic range, low resolution. Well what you provided in the end was not satisfying. Maybe it was the best of theses time, but not satisfying.
We had a recession and building came to a stop. I basically got out of shooting that type of work. We didn't have the software correction options like we do today or the HDR. That was almost 10 years ago.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Your client, while knowing they got the best available at that time clearly saw the flaws of your work and other photographers and basically, if you were to shoot again with the same gear, in today market the result would look so ancient, so low quality that nobody ever would want to pay for that.
Not even close.
05-11-2016, 05:51 AM   #1455
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I unsubscribe, another thread that fulfilled its mission and with some help from "usual suspects" was driven to a meaningless debate. Thanks God Pentax keeps going strong and keeps disappointing the "usual suspects"...
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