Pentax K-1 Officially Announced

MarkJerling · 05-02-2016, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by D1N0

Doesn't look like the hood to me:

Looks like the hood to me.

Nicolas06 · 05-02-2016, 10:44 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

According to recent publications from ISSCC, and patent here: https://www.google.com/patents/US6853044. Biasing the sensor substrate with other than 0V (refer to latest ISSCC design conference papers) allows more dynamic range without exceeding the breakdown voltage of the PIN junctions. I think it was likely implemented on some of the latest APSC DSLR. But if the same technique is applied to FF sensors, then you are back to square 1, the difference between the better APSC sensor and the better FF sensor remains the same.

And that the point, I would like we go back to the 1.22EV difference on the next Pentax APSC flagship against the best FF and not 1.75 to 2.6EV depending of the measurement you take: dynamic range or Snr18%. Basically there 0.5 to 1.4Ev to take depending of what you measure. For many people there chances it look like a full Ev difference in practical terms.

And this I would quite appreciate to take, thanks. I have nothing against the theoretical difference between APSC and FF, I don't especially want an FF neither because of size/weight. What I'd like is camera that perform better that's all. And I see that theses days recent APSC camera for Pentax could do it.

Zygonyx · 05-02-2016, 10:59 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by D1N0

Doesn't look like the hood to me:

Just crop to APS-H

bxf · 05-03-2016, 12:38 AM

Originally posted by Zygonyx

Just crop to APS-H

This ignores the theoretical advantages of APS-H viz-a-viz FF:

1. smaller, therefore cheaper sensor
2. smaller sensor, therefore smaller, lighter body

Zygonyx · 05-03-2016, 12:56 AM

Yes, but the cruel fact is : no APS-H sensor in K-mount, yet

Kunzite · 05-03-2016, 12:59 AM

Oh boy, not again!
1. what makes you think that a custom made sensor is cheaper than a slightly larger but off the shelf, previous generation sensor?
2. the K-1 is not much larger than a K-3. It's also 225g heavier, but part of it is due to features unrelated to sensor size - e.g. the flexible tilt mechanism. Let's say a 50-100g saving?
Whatever theoretical advantage, it's irrelevant. Please stop promoting a bad idea.

Simen1 · 05-03-2016, 02:27 AM

The size increments are small enough today. Canon left the middle increment between 1,6 and FF for a reason. I expect the MF 44x33mm format to vanish too, like APS-H, in favour of something with a more notable difference. For instance 53,7 x 40,4 mm.

Having many small increments reduces the mass production economic advantages. I think that if the whole digital imaging era was restarted today without any legacy compatibility, there would be larger increments (2x), none of the different sensor sizes would share mount (like APS-C and FF does now) and the focal flange distance and flange diameter would scale in increments, in the same order as their sensor sizes does. And very wishful thinking, all the camera companies would agree on the same mount (mechanical and electronic) for the same sensor size, and not limit anyone from making official specced AF lenses. That would result in fantastic free and healthy competition, like the virtual goal of capitalism, but of course, that would be a nightmare for the camera companies if they had to compete harder. They think they are better off by sitting alone on each their proprietary Islands and don't cooperate with any other company. Sorry I drifted into politics and hypothetical alternative worlds. Right here and now, APS-H is dead and thats a good thing. Next up is the 44x33 format. Then maybe the 1" format in favour of a new 1/2" format meant for phones and other thin devices. Yes, I believe lens mounts are coming that way sooner or later.

bxf · 05-03-2016, 02:40 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Oh boy, not again!
1. what makes you think that a custom made sensor is cheaper than a slightly larger but off the shelf, previous generation sensor?
2. the K-1 is not much larger than a K-3. It's also 225g heavier, but part of it is due to features unrelated to sensor size - e.g. the flexible tilt mechanism. Let's say a 50-100g saving?
Whatever theoretical advantage, it's irrelevant. Please stop promoting a bad idea.

Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent.

The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands.

**Rondec** · 05-03-2016, 02:49 AM

Originally posted by bxf

Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent.

The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands.

I don't really buy that there is any particular advantage to APS-H, assuming that you have the same pixel density. The only reason it gets brought up is because there are a very small number of lenses that Pentax makes that might be OK on APS-H but would not be OK on full frame, I suppose particularly with regard to image stabilization. Costs savings between the two would likely be non-existent, as no other mainstream company is using APS-H and Pentax would actually have small enough volumes to make cost be higher than for full frame sensor. Size differences between it and full frame are probably minimal as well.

For some reason Ron keeps bringing it up, even though it is clear that the K-1 is what Pentax has released and that Pentaxians (and maybe others) are excited by it and ordering it in droves.

gazonk · 05-03-2016, 03:05 AM

They could've given Ron an APS-H-crop-mode for the K-1, though! On the other hand, maybe Ron could just custom-order a focussing screen with the APS-H rectangle etched in?

Kunzite · 05-03-2016, 03:13 AM

Originally posted by bxf

Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent.

The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands.

Nobody?

No, APS-H was not "a more significant consideration for Pentax", or rather I doubt they were considering it at all. Pentax realized very well that what we're asking them to do, what we want - and what the competition offers - is this so-called full frame, not an intermediary format. And Pentax could see what happened to Olympus and to their slightly smaller 4/3.

Making a full frame SR without increasing the size of the mechanism was a challenge - one among many - but they managed. It was considered an obstacle only by people here, so ready to claim that it can't possibly work (despite Sony having a workable solution since the A900).
They're talking a bit about it here: Challengers | PENTAX K-1 Special site | RICOH IMAGING

D1N0 · 05-03-2016, 03:27 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Zygonyx

Just crop to APS-H

I can't it will superimpose Ron's face on the pic.

RonHendriks1966 · 05-03-2016, 06:04 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

For some reason Ron keeps bringing it up, even though it is clear that the K-1 is what Pentax has released and that Pentaxians (and maybe others) are excited by it and ordering it in droves.

Well the line of people buying the K-1 isn't to long. Only one shop has stock, others have still some people waiting for their K-1 to come (overhere they had to pay 125 euro for pre-order and are locked in). They have K-1 in stock since last thursday http://www.fotobooms.nl/detail/0/505/512/0/24422/Pentax-K-1-body.html And no one is coming in. Aparently all people wanting the K-1 have pre ordered overhere.

Kunzite · 05-03-2016, 06:25 AM - **1 Like**

If the line of people buying a product we insistently requested isn't too long, how long do you think it would be, for a product only you and - perhaps - bxf are requesting?

PALADIN85020 · 05-03-2016, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by bxf

Just so that we are clear, I made this one up. But, German does have some words that translate to an entire phrase in English.

I understand that the longest word in the world is the German word for the left-hand collar button on the steamboat captain's windbreaker.....

John

PENTAX : PENTAX Photo Gallery artist page

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05-02-2016, 06:02 PM	#1366
MarkJerling Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: May 2012 Location: Wairarapa, New Zealand Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 20,421	Originally posted by D1N0 Doesn't look like the hood to me: Looks like the hood to me.

05-02-2016, 10:44 PM	#1367
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by biz-engineer According to recent publications from ISSCC, and patent here: https://www.google.com/patents/US6853044. Biasing the sensor substrate with other than 0V (refer to latest ISSCC design conference papers) allows more dynamic range without exceeding the breakdown voltage of the PIN junctions. I think it was likely implemented on some of the latest APSC DSLR. But if the same technique is applied to FF sensors, then you are back to square 1, the difference between the better APSC sensor and the better FF sensor remains the same. And that the point, I would like we go back to the 1.22EV difference on the next Pentax APSC flagship against the best FF and not 1.75 to 2.6EV depending of the measurement you take: dynamic range or Snr18%. Basically there 0.5 to 1.4Ev to take depending of what you measure. For many people there chances it look like a full Ev difference in practical terms. And this I would quite appreciate to take, thanks. I have nothing against the theoretical difference between APSC and FF, I don't especially want an FF neither because of size/weight. What I'd like is camera that perform better that's all. And I see that theses days recent APSC camera for Pentax could do it.

05-02-2016, 10:59 PM - 1 Like	#1368
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Originally posted by D1N0 Doesn't look like the hood to me: Just crop to APS-H

05-03-2016, 12:38 AM	#1369
bxf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Lisbon area Posts: 1,660	Originally posted by Zygonyx Just crop to APS-H This ignores the theoretical advantages of APS-H viz-a-viz FF: 1. smaller, therefore cheaper sensor 2. smaller sensor, therefore smaller, lighter body

05-03-2016, 12:56 AM	#1370
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	Yes, but the cruel fact is : no APS-H sensor in K-mount, yet

05-03-2016, 12:59 AM	#1371
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Oh boy, not again! 1. what makes you think that a custom made sensor is cheaper than a slightly larger but off the shelf, previous generation sensor? 2. the K-1 is not much larger than a K-3. It's also 225g heavier, but part of it is due to features unrelated to sensor size - e.g. the flexible tilt mechanism. Let's say a 50-100g saving? Whatever theoretical advantage, it's irrelevant. Please stop promoting a bad idea.

05-03-2016, 02:27 AM	#1372
Simen1 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Tromsø, Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 1,031	The size increments are small enough today. Canon left the middle increment between 1,6 and FF for a reason. I expect the MF 44x33mm format to vanish too, like APS-H, in favour of something with a more notable difference. For instance 53,7 x 40,4 mm. Having many small increments reduces the mass production economic advantages. I think that if the whole digital imaging era was restarted today without any legacy compatibility, there would be larger increments (2x), none of the different sensor sizes would share mount (like APS-C and FF does now) and the focal flange distance and flange diameter would scale in increments, in the same order as their sensor sizes does. And very wishful thinking, all the camera companies would agree on the same mount (mechanical and electronic) for the same sensor size, and not limit anyone from making official specced AF lenses. That would result in fantastic free and healthy competition, like the virtual goal of capitalism, but of course, that would be a nightmare for the camera companies if they had to compete harder. They think they are better off by sitting alone on each their proprietary Islands and don't cooperate with any other company. Sorry I drifted into politics and hypothetical alternative worlds. Right here and now, APS-H is dead and thats a good thing. Next up is the 44x33 format. Then maybe the 1" format in favour of a new 1/2" format meant for phones and other thin devices. Yes, I believe lens mounts are coming that way sooner or later.

05-03-2016, 02:40 AM	#1373
bxf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Lisbon area Posts: 1,660	Originally posted by Kunzite Oh boy, not again! 1. what makes you think that a custom made sensor is cheaper than a slightly larger but off the shelf, previous generation sensor? 2. the K-1 is not much larger than a K-3. It's also 225g heavier, but part of it is due to features unrelated to sensor size - e.g. the flexible tilt mechanism. Let's say a 50-100g saving? Whatever theoretical advantage, it's irrelevant. Please stop promoting a bad idea. Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent. The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands.

05-03-2016, 02:49 AM	#1374
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,663	Originally posted by bxf Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent. The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands. I don't really buy that there is any particular advantage to APS-H, assuming that you have the same pixel density. The only reason it gets brought up is because there are a very small number of lenses that Pentax makes that might be OK on APS-H but would not be OK on full frame, I suppose particularly with regard to image stabilization. Costs savings between the two would likely be non-existent, as no other mainstream company is using APS-H and Pentax would actually have small enough volumes to make cost be higher than for full frame sensor. Size differences between it and full frame are probably minimal as well. For some reason Ron keeps bringing it up, even though it is clear that the K-1 is what Pentax has released and that Pentaxians (and maybe others) are excited by it and ordering it in droves.

05-03-2016, 03:05 AM	#1375
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	They could've given Ron an APS-H-crop-mode for the K-1, though! On the other hand, maybe Ron could just custom-order a focussing screen with the APS-H rectangle etched in?

05-03-2016, 03:13 AM	#1376
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by bxf Nobody (I think) is promoting it - it is much too late for that, even if that had been the original intent. The comment merely points out why APS-H could have been a useful format if adopted on a large scale. Granted, this was a more significant consideration for Pentax, since Shake Reduction was considered a possible obstacle to FF at one time, hence the unlikelihood of this being used by other (i.e. those without IBIS) brands. Nobody? No, APS-H was not "a more significant consideration for Pentax", or rather I doubt they were considering it at all. Pentax realized very well that what we're asking them to do, what we want - and what the competition offers - is this so-called full frame, not an intermediary format. And Pentax could see what happened to Olympus and to their slightly smaller 4/3. Making a full frame SR without increasing the size of the mechanism was a challenge - one among many - but they managed. It was considered an obstacle only by people here, so ready to claim that it can't possibly work (despite Sony having a workable solution since the A900). They're talking a bit about it here: Challengers \| PENTAX K-1 Special site \| RICOH IMAGING

05-03-2016, 03:27 AM - 3 Likes	#1377
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Zygonyx Just crop to APS-H I can't it will superimpose Ron's face on the pic.

05-03-2016, 06:04 AM	#1378
RonHendriks1966 Banned Join Date: Jan 2009 Photos: Gallery Posts: 9,675	Originally posted by Rondec For some reason Ron keeps bringing it up, even though it is clear that the K-1 is what Pentax has released and that Pentaxians (and maybe others) are excited by it and ordering it in droves. Well the line of people buying the K-1 isn't to long. Only one shop has stock, others have still some people waiting for their K-1 to come (overhere they had to pay 125 euro for pre-order and are locked in). They have K-1 in stock since last thursday http://www.fotobooms.nl/detail/0/505/512/0/24422/Pentax-K-1-body.html And no one is coming in. Aparently all people wanting the K-1 have pre ordered overhere.

05-03-2016, 06:25 AM - 1 Like	#1379
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	If the line of people buying a product we insistently requested isn't too long, how long do you think it would be, for a product only you and - perhaps - bxf are requesting?

05-03-2016, 11:01 AM	#1380
PALADIN85020 Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Arizona Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 442	Originally posted by bxf Just so that we are clear, I made this one up. But, German does have some words that translate to an entire phrase in English. I understand that the longest word in the world is the German word for the left-hand collar button on the steamboat captain's windbreaker..... John PENTAX : PENTAX Photo Gallery artist page