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02-29-2016, 02:57 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
I have come to the conclusion that people who use this tired phrase wouldn't know what a paradigm is, even if it was sitting next to them eating their lunch.
The ultimate irony in a society increasingly immune to such a paradox

02-29-2016, 05:18 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote


That is it: Compact Camera Meter

The Sony+lens is a lowly 3,500+2,000=5,500 EUR street price and bulkier.
The K-1+lens is $1750+$700 = $2,450 street price and has a viewfinder. That is more than twice the value.
To be fair:Compact Camera Meter
02-29-2016, 10:10 AM - 1 Like   #198
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To concentrate on the lenses and lens types they are either missing or weak on rather than more of the same of what they already have is good business sense. If the road map extended until 2020 with no new APS-C or smaller FF lenses then perhaps Pentax is abandoning the compact lenses but the map goes out to less than two full years. The FA limiteds could be upgraded without being on the map and maybe a lens or two that is aimed at early 2018 come out early.

Seems ironic that Pentax needed to produce a capable FF camera or they were doomed and now that they have and are producinng some lenses that the FF camera needs they are now doomed. And it is a bit silly comparing a camera and a single lens between two systems or camera types as if the buyer has no existing lenses or is only intererested in the one lens or focal length.
02-29-2016, 10:32 AM - 1 Like   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
To be fair:...
Buyers won't be "fair" just to please not so clever Sony fanboys. They will want a sexy small camera/lens combination for shooting street and people such as the K-1 plus FA 77 is.
Sony just has no competitive lens offering in that segment. That is what the discussion was about.
The A7RII sucks not only with regards to grip and viewfinder, but also with regards to attractive lens offerings. And the price/performance value is abysmal, too. Toy camera for gadget nerds.

02-29-2016, 10:47 AM - 1 Like   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Buyers won't be "fair" just to please not so clever Sony fanboys. They will want a sexy small camera/lens combination for shooting street and people such as the K-1 plus FA 77 is.
Sony just has no competitive lens offering in that segment. That is what the discussion was about.
The A7RII sucks not only with regards to grip and viewfinder, but also with regards to attractive lens offerings. And the price/performance value is abysmal, too. Toy camera for gadget nerds.
Ok be like that
02-29-2016, 11:31 AM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
They won't.
I would agree But some really want to discuss (not you).
02-29-2016, 11:40 AM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by redrockcoulee Quote
To concentrate on the lenses and lens types they are either missing or weak on rather than more of the same of what they already have is good business sense. If the road map extended until 2020 with no new APS-C or smaller FF lenses then perhaps Pentax is abandoning the compact lenses but the map goes out to less than two full years. The FA limiteds could be upgraded without being on the map and maybe a lens or two that is aimed at early 2018 come out early.

Seems ironic that Pentax needed to produce a capable FF camera or they were doomed and now that they have and are producinng some lenses that the FF camera needs they are now doomed. And it is a bit silly comparing a camera and a single lens between two systems or camera types as if the buyer has no existing lenses or is only intererested in the one lens or focal length.
First remark: I didn't say they are doomed. This has really no meaning. As long as they make money the company isn't doomed.
Second remark: No necessarily the same persons want an FF, want big lenses or want small lenses. Messing up and trying to generalize out of "mixed" people that may not exist or be marginal is not very informative. To me it was pure rethorics on your part so if you don't like it, then stop doing it.
Third remark: The lens size discussion was not based on a single lens. if you take some time to actually review line up, there no contest that Sony A7 lenses are not that compact or that an APSC body tend to require smaller lenses for the same reach than an FF body. This is common knowledge that the larger the sensor, the bulkier the gear become, not like it was totally unexpected discovery. After all there no many smartphones with an MF sensor.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 03-01-2016 at 01:01 AM.
02-29-2016, 04:38 PM - 1 Like   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Buyers won't be "fair" just to please not so clever Sony fanboys. They will want a sexy small camera/lens combination for shooting street and people such as the K-1 plus FA 77 is.
Sony just has no competitive lens offering in that segment. That is what the discussion was about.
The A7RII sucks not only with regards to grip and viewfinder, but also with regards to attractive lens offerings. And the price/performance value is abysmal, too. Toy camera for gadget nerds.
Sony fanboys or not, there are many fanboys for whatever brand out there... I own a few systems and I know none of them are perfect and all of them are good in their respective use, and I respected each manufacturer and what they have done. If one were to say a system is bad and another is good without saying objective reasons and not looking at their strengths and weaknesses giving credit when credit is due is being a "fanboy".

I'm not sure you have tried the A7RII or not, the EVF on that is certainly beyond rubbish, in fact, is it one of best out there. Won't start an OVF vs EVF debate here, but the point is, for EVF, the A7R2 has one of the best EVF out there, just try the EVFs from other cameras, and you will know what I mean. the grip? It isn't excellent in DSLR standards, but for mirrorless, it is again one of the best as well, depends on what you comparing it to. Attractive lens? Well in the FE lens lineup sure there isn't a direct competitor for FA 77, but there are also other nice and not so big lenses that are good at shooting street and people such as FE 35mm f2.8, Loxia 35mm f2, Loxia 50mm f2, FE55mm f1.8 and Batis 85mm f1.8. Sure there's isn't something that cheap in the lineup, and the A7R2 body is very expensive indeed, however, FA 77 isn't exactly cheap either, sure it performs well but it is not a new optics anymore. Then there is the flexibility of using adapters, mount almost any brand's lenses and auto-focus many of them on the A7 series body, yes it won't work as well as native lenses, at least the ability to expand can't be overlooked. Pentax has good FA lenses, and many older lenses can go onto the K-1, plus many new D-FA lenses are coming that's also great for expandability, just it can't use say Canon Nikon lenses with adapter and certainly can't autofocus them.

Put in perspective, the Pentax set is still cheaper then A7R2 plus whatever FE native lenses, but it is still bigger and heavier in volume than A7R2 with any of the native lenses I mentioned above, sure they do not give the unique perpective of FA 77mm, but the fact you can also put FA 77 on A7R2 with adapter will still be lighter and smaller makes this whole thing more complex to look at it. Yes you do lose autofocus, but can't change it fact the A7R2 + FA77 is still smaller and lighter than K-1 +FA 77. The way how I see this is, there is no clear winner for every category, that's why people will ended up buying both K-1 and Sony A7 series bodies. The K-1 + FA77 is certainly good package with better price, and people buy it for many good reasons, but there are people also choose to buy the A7 series and A7R2 because there are other things that Pentax or any brands don't offer as well, horses for courses really.

---------- Post added 03-01-16 at 10:57 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by filoxophy Quote
Are those new Sony G behemoths for A-mount as well? Sure looks like it in that camerasize view. Looks like a DSLR/T lens with a permanently affixed adapter.
No they are for E-mount cameras, I'm sure they are top performers, but I can imagine they will be terribly unbalanced on A7 series bodies.


Last edited by ColiNiloK; 02-29-2016 at 04:50 PM.
02-29-2016, 07:21 PM - 3 Likes   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by ColiNiloK Quote
FA 77 isn't exactly cheap either, sure it performs well but it is not a new optics anymore.
so, you're saying a lens has to be brand new to be any good?
02-29-2016, 07:33 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
Okay, if they're bringing out a full frame fisheye, that kills any intention I had of buying the DA 10-17. I'm sure it's a good lens, but I am planning to switch up at some point, and for a lens with a non-rectilinear projection I'd rather have it optimised for the full sensor size. And while I'm sure by now they won't be putting an aperture ring on it, I should at least be able to slap it on my P3 and P30T and run it in program mode the way I do my DA40 and DA50 from time to time.
You can get your full-frame DA 10-17-style fisheye right now in the F 17-28mm. I've already snapped one up, and my DA 10-17 is going to find a new home with some APS-C user.
Only niggle I have with the F 17-28 is that is doesn't focus as close as the DA 10-17. So for the 2017 version, I want closer focusing along with weather-sealing.
02-29-2016, 08:21 PM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
so, you're saying a lens has to be brand new to be any good?
Well, if that's the case all the 18-55 lenses from most brands will become well regarded hot sellers and we will be getting waiting list to get one from stores.... Frankly speaking some old lenses performs better than some new ones, and FA 77 is definitely one older lenses that perform well. My point to the previous post is those FE native lenses are designed to pair with the A7 series and perform well- they are all new, thus it gives many people the positive psychology that it will have high performance thus it is a good value thus people will buy. The FA 77 will sure go well with the K-1, but how good, we will all need to see when the production K-1 lands but for those who are not familiar with it, it won't appear as if it will perform well because it's not a lens designed back then to cater the 36MP FF sensor inside the K-1 one day. It's just usually when we get a new lens most people hope it is good, but it doesn't mean the old lens is now bad, It's just it's a psychological thing for many people, and it certainly works to make sales.
02-29-2016, 08:28 PM - 2 Likes   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by ColiNiloK Quote
they are all new, thus it gives many people the positive psychology that it will have high performance thus it is a good value thus people will buy
Those of us who know better will send a few canaries down the mine shaft before going in ourselves. New doesn't always mean it is the "best". And sometimes new technology needs thorough testing outside controlled conditions outside QC labs before the true qualities of hardware can be revealed. A lot of lenses SONY have come out with have massive sample variations.

QuoteOriginally posted by ColiNiloK Quote
it won't appear as if it will perform well because it's not a lens designed back then to cater the 36MP FF sensor inside the K-1 one day
The pixel density of the K-1 is practically identical to the K5IIs - it will perform superbly.
02-29-2016, 10:28 PM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Those of us who know better will send a few canaries down the mine shaft before going in ourselves. New doesn't always mean it is the "best". And sometimes new technology needs thorough testing outside controlled conditions outside QC labs before the true qualities of hardware can be revealed. A lot of lenses SONY have come out with have massive sample variations.

The pixel density of the K-1 is practically identical to the K5IIs - it will perform superbly.
So "crop mode" basically turns it into a K-5iis? In all the talk, I had missed the fact that "crop-mode" was that good.
02-29-2016, 10:41 PM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
So "crop mode" basically turns it into a K-5iis?
basically - there are some differences in sensor architecture that will result in minor differences in IQ between the two cameras.
02-29-2016, 10:55 PM - 1 Like   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
Those of us who know better will send a few canaries down the mine shaft before going in ourselves. New doesn't always mean it is the "best". And sometimes new technology needs thorough testing outside controlled conditions outside QC labs before the true qualities of hardware can be revealed. A lot of lenses SONY have come out with have massive sample variations..
Yea, I'm not a fan their QC this days too, I feel the whole FE lineup and A7 series is rushed and trying to combat compromise after compromise( Hope the G Master lineup changes that).... the E-mount just isn't designed to host FF sensor from the beginning and not well engineered like Minolta's A-mount.

QuoteOriginally posted by Digitalis Quote
The pixel density of the K-1 is practically identical to the K5IIs - it will perform superbly.
Agreed, theoretically speaking the FA 77 should perform well on the K-1, I certainly hope so, but I want to see what happens when K-1 lands as well.
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