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03-02-2016, 01:16 AM   #121
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Somehow you can all hold a camera in your hands and hold it without movement for a Full second. That is great. I can't and this is for sure, many can't. We will see how this works out in correction within the camera. I don't expect to much. It is a future that can do it's work best on a tripod.

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Last edited by RonHendriks1966; 03-02-2016 at 01:55 AM.
03-02-2016, 01:42 AM - 1 Like   #122
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I have to agree with Ron here, until proven otherwise I seriously doubt handheld PS will give good results. The only possibility for that too work is if the read out speed is extremely high so the entire sequence could be done in a fraction of a second, and maybe it is that high? But probably not.

The motion detection can probably fix it by cancelling the function, but then what is the point?

On the other hand I have no problem with using a tripod, mirror up (if necessary) and a remote when using PS for ultimate result.
03-02-2016, 01:56 AM   #123
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You're assuming they don't use image alignment; and that they're lying about the Motion Correction function described in their product page:
Features1 | PENTAX K-1 | RICOH IMAGING
03-02-2016, 02:08 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You're assuming they don't use image alignment; and that they're lying about the Motion Correction function described in their product page:
Features1 | PENTAX K-1 | RICOH IMAGING
Yes, I am assuming the don’t use image alignment as the colors have shifted it might be problematic, but haven’t thought about that really.

I have however read the link you are referring to, and it says:

“When using this system, the user is advised to stabilize the camera firmly on a tripod during shooting by setting the drive mode to self-timer or remote control, or using the mirror lock-up function.”

03-02-2016, 02:12 AM   #125
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If it is made possible to shoot PS hand held, why not but I suppose you can have better result with tri-/or even monopod. Great that they have really looked in to this more further. It is same thing with longer exposures, it is possible to take handheld shots, which was not so possible before, but you can have better result by using tripod and take more time when focusing,like LV and FP.
03-02-2016, 02:26 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by repaap Quote
If it is made possible to shoot PS hand held, why not but I suppose you can have better result with tri-/or even monopod.
Exactly. Hand-held PS will probably work OK a lot of the time, and generally work better in the K-1 than the K-3 II.

But if you want ideal PS results, using a tripod will help, as will shooting a scene with not a lot of movement, or variation in colours or light.

Same shooting advice applies to the regular K-3/K-3 II multiple exposure or image composite drive modes, and even plain old exposure bracketing too.
03-02-2016, 02:37 AM   #127
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what we (or I, which i admit is a long way from being the same thing) don't know is the actual exposure time in the K-1 - Ron says PS takes a second in the K3ii - even there, surely the actual exposures don't take that long? Question, by the way - I know nothing about how it works - but it's only the actual exposure tim e the camera has to be steady for, obviously...
03-02-2016, 03:02 AM   #128
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You have four exposures (which I assume can be anything between 1/8000 to 30sec each) plus 3 readouts of the entire sensor (the fourth readout isn’t critical in terms of speed) and repositioning of the sensor three times.

If we keep the shutter time short I guess the readout will dominate the total time of the sequence. That is a guess though, I don’t know the readout speed.

03-02-2016, 03:15 AM - 2 Likes   #129
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We'll see about pixel shift, but I remain optimistic. First of all, for landscape photos, I generally do use a tripod. If, as Ron says, four images will take a second to make, that means that my shutter speed is about 1/4 second and there is no way I will be able to hand hold that -- even if I was just shooting a single shot I couldn't hold that steady. Second, there are plenty of situations where your shutter speed is going to be really fast in which case, taking four photos at 1/500 second each is easily feasible handheld and yes, there will be some alignment algorithm which helps small movements.

There are clearly many types of photography which this would not be ideal for -- sports, street photography, etc. But for landscape in particular, it looks like a winner to me (I'll see for sure when I get a K-1 to shoot with).
03-02-2016, 03:22 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
If, as Ron says, four images will take a second to make,
I've not timed pixel shift on the K-3 II, but it seems to me a lot quicker than a whole second. And wouldn't the process be similar to stitching hand-held HDR shots? I've not tried that function.
03-02-2016, 03:26 AM - 1 Like   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
I've not timed pixel shift on the K-3 II, but it seems to me a lot quicker than a whole second.
Sure. But your best results with landscape photos are going to be at iso 100 anyway -- that means a tripod in many situations, whether or not you have pixel shift enabled. Shooting iso 800 or 1600, even on a full frame camera for these images is unacceptable to me. The noise will probably be fine, but the dynamic range will not be what I want or expect. I would just leave it with the statement that to get the best image quality, some effort is required.
03-02-2016, 04:51 AM   #132
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I think it is all speculative until we get cameras in our hands. I get frustrated when people insist they know PS (or any new feature) isn't going to work before we've seen anything. We have no idea whether K-1 PixelShift takes 1 second for a shot.

FWIW, I've been told directly by someone who has used the camera PS in general is a real advance - truly stunning - and that it can be used handheld in certain circumstances. That might be cheerleading, but it isn't uninformed speculation.

Just wait.
03-02-2016, 04:59 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
four images will take a second to make, that means that my shutter speed is about 1/4 second and there is no way I will be able to hand hold that -- even if I was just shooting a single shot I couldn't hold that steady.
You mix up things.

They can use any shutter speed with the electronic shutter with pixelshift, so if you want 1/250 then you get it in pixelshift. Otherwise all bright daylight landscape pictures using pixelshift outside would be seriously overexposed. And that works fine as we can see in the K-3 II.

There is the other thing that is sensor readout speed and this is limited by Sony's design capabilities. That again currently is maximum 4,7 FPS on that K-1 sensor or on shutter speed terms it is 1/5th second.

So each of the four exposures in itself is no issue with regards to shake due to the short shutter times.
The challenge here is to correctly align four images taken 1/5th of a second appart.
Even in the past that was a non issue handheld for bracketing and HDR shots.Those worked fine from pure SR capability perspective on pixel level..

The question now is if the engineers can align pictures even on the subpixellevel as required for pixelshift handheld.

I personally did not read the descriptions as allowing handheld PxSh shots, just that they now have a good antighosting software solution, so small movements within the frame show little artifacts.
03-02-2016, 05:45 AM - 2 Likes   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
You mix up things.

They can use any shutter speed with the electronic shutter with pixelshift, so if you want 1/250 then you get it in pixelshift. Otherwise all bright daylight landscape pictures using pixelshift outside would be seriously overexposed. And that works fine as we can see in the K-3 II.

There is the other thing that is sensor readout speed and this is limited by Sony's design capabilities. That again currently is maximum 4,7 FPS on that K-1 sensor or on shutter speed terms it is 1/5th second.

So each of the four exposures in itself is no issue with regards to shake due to the short shutter times.
The challenge here is to correctly align four images taken 1/5th of a second appart.
Even in the past that was a non issue handheld for bracketing and HDR shots.Those worked fine from pure SR capability perspective on pixel level..

The question now is if the engineers can align pictures even on the subpixellevel as required for pixelshift handheld.

I personally did not read the descriptions as allowing handheld PxSh shots, just that they now have a good antighosting software solution, so small movements within the frame show little artifacts.
I agree entirely. My point is, generally speaking, that if you want maximal image quality, you should use a tripod -- whether or not you use pixel shift. I personally doubt that Pixel Shift will be particularly useful handheld. If the anti-ghosting algorithms are OK, it won't be worse than a single shot, but odds are that it won't add a whole lot of detail to the overall image.

But people act like using a tripod is the end of the world. The two things that would give the biggest improvement in most folk's image quality would be to use a tripod whenever possible and learn to use flash. Those would give a bigger boost than buying a full frame camera, guaranteed.
03-02-2016, 06:10 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I agree entirely. My point is, generally speaking, that if you want maximal image quality, you should use a tripod -- whether or not you use pixel shift. I personally doubt that Pixel Shift will be particularly useful handheld. If the anti-ghosting algorithms are OK, it won't be worse than a single shot, but odds are that it won't add a whole lot of detail to the overall image.

But people act like using a tripod is the end of the world. The two things that would give the biggest improvement in most folk's image quality would be to use a tripod whenever possible and learn to use flash. Those would give a bigger boost than buying a full frame camera, guaranteed.
First, to address my thoughts on the PS discussion (not directly directed to Rondec). I do agree wrt. the commentary on the sensor readout speed, disagree on some people's proclivity to judge before seeing actual results (some people should eat their 'vitamins') and finally hope for the best.

Sorry, I'm replying on a bit of a tangent here on the tripod use, however, tripod isn't always that simple. I have to say that in some cases the tripod has to be an absolute monumental, hulking and heavy beast (try high arctic winds ) to be of any use. Unfortunately on some of these same situations dragging such a tripod with is highly impractical. As such, potential for hand held shots is actually appreciated. Not disagreeing per se, just pointing out fringe use cases.
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