Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
04-04-2016, 08:48 AM - 1 Like   #166
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 9,343
QuoteOriginally posted by Dipsoid Quote
I think you're taking the defensive, all he said was that Fuji is far ahead of Pentax in mirrorless lens design, which they objectively are, no doubt. He didn't say anything about Pentax's inability to design mirrorless lenses or say Pentax doesn't make "modern" lenses. If Ricoh wants to break into the mirrorless market on a strong way it would be a big mistake if they didn't reach out to a company with more experience in that field and try and share technology.
Perhaps statements like "It would be crazy for Ricoh to do anything other than accept the superior and modern designs" are the reason? That's just buying into hype big style... yet, there's no substance behind such claims.
For Pete's sake, how could Pentax - a dedicated DSLR manufacturer - have a mirrorless lens line-up comparable to that of a dedicated mirrorless manufacturer? How could you compare those two? It's declaring a winner when the "challenger" never bothered to participate in the race.
So don't give me any of that "superior and modern" BS. The only factor which would prevent Pentax (or Ricoh, whatever brand would be used) to have a full mirrorless lens line-up is how fast they can introduce new lenses on the market.

At most, one can (rightfully) say that Fujifilm have a headstart. Yes, they do, but this is not an insurmountable problem. When Fujifilm itself launched their X system, Olympus had a headstart. Panasonic had a headstart. Sony had a headstart. And Samsung had a headstart.

Sharing technology could make sense (and it's done on many levels), but Ricoh Imaging playing second fiddle to Fujifilm? That's what you want?

---------- Post added 04-04-16 at 06:57 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
I think you're missing the gist of the argument, and I admit I could have clarified for context. Overall, I think the Pentax technology is very good. That is, the lenses (new and legacy) and dslr system work just fine together. In fact, better than what Fuji brings to the table in slr/dslr historically. However, a lot goes into making quality, small optics at close registration distances. Pentax is not a player in this realm, and adapting dslr lenses to the mirrorless registration is a significant compromise, especially so for normal to wide angle lenses. In this regard, Fuji really is more modern and superior - for mirrorless systems.

It is interesting to think about how Fuji and Pentax would sort out and apply their strengths in a partnership. I'm not quite sure what Fuji gains - other than a large legacy lens lineup. Possibly Fuji is interested in getting back into the dslr realm, and the two companies could divvy dslr and mirrorless accordingly.
As I said, the reason why Pentax didn't do much on the mirrorless lens arena is because it made no sense, being a DSLR brand. Your comparison is invalid. Null. Void.
Partnership or not, Ricoh Imaging will want to push their own optical designs - new ones - instead of instantly surrendering. And they did a good job on the GR.

By the way, it seems you're assuming there are only 2 possibilities, between using the X-mount (APS-C only, small diameter, something Ricoh Imaging said they would want to avoid if doing a new mount) and K-mount (makes no sense except for K-01-like experiments).
I think neither is desirable - for Fuji to adopt the K-mount, nor for Pentax to adopt the X-mount. Perhaps, on the small format arena, both company would go their separate way - Fujifilm still claiming that FF is not needed. And perhaps, if they will indeed cooperate, they would build a new, mirrorless medium format - as equal partners.


Last edited by Kunzite; 04-04-2016 at 09:07 AM.
04-04-2016, 09:34 AM   #167
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 691
IMHO I thought Pentax had made a great start with the K-01. It made for an excellent tripod use camera. All Pentax needs to do is flesh it out further. The XS lens concept has great potential on it's own. Just bring on weather sealing. OLED EVF. Electronic Shutter.

It would also be interesting if Pentax considered this new Sigma APS-H camera as their mirrorless platform. APS-H is a good fit for DA LTD lenses. No need for Pixel shift resolution as the sensor already has that baked into the architecture. As for sharpness/resolution nothing really beats the quality of the Foveon sensor. If you go to one of those sites where you can compare 4 different cameras from a test image that has all sorts of objects from 3D things like fuzzy balls, colored thread, paint brushes to printed materials with text and images etc. If you compare the Sigma DP1 which is Sigma's wide angle compact APS-C camera against any other brand or sensor size the Sigma DP1 has more detail and 3D effect than all of them. The K-3 using pixel shift is a close second against the rest of the competition as well.

How about using Samsung's 28mp BSI sensors. This is also a high quality sensor that should not be over looked. The K3 and K3II could have had this BSI sensor. It is a shame they did not use it in the GRII.
04-04-2016, 10:15 AM   #168
Site Supporter
Zygonyx's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ile de France
Posts: 3,074
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I think neither is desirable - for Fuji to adopt the K-mount, nor for Pentax to adopt the X-mount. Perhaps, on the small format arena, both company would go their separate way - Fujifilm still claiming that FF is not needed. And perhaps, if they will indeed cooperate, they would build a new, mirrorless medium format - as equal partners.
Nor is it desirable that Pentax adopts Fuji's ergonomics nor build quality...


04-04-2016, 10:22 AM   #169
Pentaxian
ScooterMaxi Jim's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,501
Realistically, we're at the point where the technological splintering probably has reached its peak, and given that the majority of what constitutes photography is now done with a phone attached - consolidation will be the next phase over many years. Who will drop out (Samsung first apparently), while others with small share or no underlying corporate bulwark (i.e. Pentax, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, and even Nikon) resort to partnerships or outright mergers? Several players, most likely. That means we are highly unlikely to see new mounts, and alliances like Pentax-Tamron will be further solidified. At three distinct mounts, and possibly five sensor sizes (assuming we will see full-size MF soon), Pentax is saturated and Ricoh managers aren't likely to allow further expansion of all-new mounts, let alone take on supplying the FA needs alone. The limited return on investment compared to resources required are aiming toward more consolidated efforts.

04-04-2016, 10:39 AM   #170
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 20,450
^^ That last sentence is the key. Unless the big two truly encounter crushing overcapacity problems and contract ala auto manufacturers in the 2000's (dramatically lowering barriers to entry and increasing potential returns), corporate owners won't allocate to an 8% Return on Invested Capital business when there are so many better opportunities elsewhere.
04-04-2016, 10:43 AM   #171
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,983
QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
I don't think this is apples for apples. The K->Q Adapter isn't as useful because every lens becomes a giant telephoto. It's conceptually interesting, but not very practical.
That is the only reason someone like me would want one, to get "reach" beyond current native Q-mount, and for someone like me, who does lots of wildlife photography, that is extremely practical. No, the Pentax K-to-Q adapter is not very popular because it is quite costly, more that a 01 lens, but leaves the adapted lens completely manual - no aperture control or even awareness, and no focus.
04-04-2016, 10:58 AM   #172
Pentaxian
RonHendriks1966's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,714
QuoteOriginally posted by ScooterMaxi Jim Quote
Realistically, we're at the point where the technological splintering probably has reached its peak, and given that the majority of what constitutes photography is now done with a phone attached - consolidation will be the next phase over many years. Who will drop out (Samsung first apparently), while others with small share or no underlying corporate bulwark (i.e. Pentax, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic, and even Nikon) resort to partnerships or outright mergers? Several players, most likely. That means we are highly unlikely to see new mounts, and alliances like Pentax-Tamron will be further solidified. At three distinct mounts, and possibly five sensor sizes (assuming we will see full-size MF soon), Pentax is saturated and Ricoh managers aren't likely to allow further expansion of all-new mounts, let alone take on supplying the FA needs alone. The limited return on investment compared to resources required are aiming toward more consolidated efforts.
Well who knows. Things are changing. Foxconn can buy Sharp. So a Chinese company can buy a Japanese company. That is new. Maybe some Chinese firma would like to step into Hi tech camera's and could buy one of the current camera brands.
04-04-2016, 11:20 AM - 1 Like   #173
Pentaxian
ScooterMaxi Jim's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 1,501
I don't know, but the market trending is a reasonable basis for my viewpoint.

Yes, China has USD (and other currencies) that result in some outside investments, but not nearly as much as even two years ago. My best guess is that the Chinese look at the badly failed Saab acquisition as a lesson regarding the likely western market reaction when certain sectors have brands with particularly strong cache. Cars and cameras are at the top of those branding lists, and Chinese buyouts tend to cause extreme negative reactions - whether or not justified. Less of a problem if the sector is already well established in China - such as IBM/Lenovo in personal computers - but most westerners would question the value of cars, cameras, lenses owned and/or sourced from China.

04-04-2016, 03:29 PM   #174
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,117
The smaller Japanese camera companies are minute players in the scale of things (as camera companies, distinct from their parent combines) and in any case are on the fringes of a small and troubled industry. It's hard to see why the Chinese should care or perhaps even notice. Besides, the cultural problems of combining Chinese and Japanese teams might well be insurmountable.

Better perhaps to let these smaller companies live out their last decade or so in the familiar surroundings of their own market niches. They have nothing the Chinese could not do themselves if they really wanted, and in each case the owners of these smaller companies seem reluctant to do much more than business as usual. Surges and surprises don't sound on the cards.

Canon, Nikon and Sony are the only story here, I'd have thought. It is they who will dictate whatever mirrorless does or does not become.
04-04-2016, 07:57 PM - 1 Like   #175
Pentaxian
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,187
Remember when people said that the K-01 was too big for a mirrorless camera? My have times changed...
Attached Images
       
04-04-2016, 08:16 PM   #176
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,135
I read a review about the GX8 which said it resembled a brick,these comparisons show there's only ONE brick !

Last edited by surfar; 04-05-2016 at 03:43 PM. Reason: new info
04-04-2016, 09:06 PM   #177
Pentaxian




Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Iloilo City
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,106
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Remember when people said that the K-01 was too big for a mirrorless camera? My have times changed...
Maybe it's just a little thicker. But in my opinion it lacked the EVF. Other than that, it would have done well.
04-04-2016, 10:25 PM   #178
Site Supporter
Sandy Hancock's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Adelaide Hills, South Australia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,731
It would be a HUGE mistake to develop a mirrorless system which required a new lens mount/registration distance.

That leaves three options IMHO:

1) Broaden the appeal of the Q system with more high end lenses like fast wide and tele macro primes to compliment the 08, 01 and 06, and maybe increase sensor size if the image circle supports it. Easiest option.

2) Learn from the lessons of the conceptually excellent K-01, and add an EVF and all the video specs the movie aficionados incessantly bleat about. Expect another (compact) brick. Broadest appeal.

3) Go all out and make a kick-arse MF mirrorless to compliment the 645z, with EVF and video features like the APS-C camera above. Game changer.

Ricoh is in a position to do any (or all) of these....

Last edited by Sandy Hancock; 04-05-2016 at 01:00 AM.
04-04-2016, 11:21 PM   #179
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,135
2 is most likely...1 would be good but from what I believe the latest sensor is as big as the lenses can handle...

4.introduce a video orientated Q with the sensor from the Ricoh WG-M2...and in the 10/7body....

1+4k...yes please!
04-05-2016, 01:02 AM   #180
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Tromsų, Norway
Photos: Albums
Posts: 955
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Remember when people said that the K-01 was too big for a mirrorless camera? My have times changed...
Notice the protruding viewfinder on both GX8 and X-pro2 and the slimmer main body. The K-01 was shaped like a slightly rounded brick. It looks fat in a not so nice way. The K-01 should take that lesson and have a slimmer main body, a protruding lens mount and equally protruding EVF (protruding the same way as the mount). That will also make it possible to make a quite large grip for a mirrorless camera without increasing the specified thickness. Panasonic, Oympus, Samsung and Sony also uses visual tricks with lines and dual colours to make slimmer and smaller appearance. In conclusion, I think the designer Mark Newson is to blame for much of the critics against K-01.

QuoteOriginally posted by Sandy Hancock Quote
1) Broaden the appeal of the Q system with more high end lenses like fast wide and tele macro primes to compliment the 08, 01 and 06, and maybe increase sensor size if the image circle supports it. Easiest option.

2) Learn from the lessons of the conceptually excellent K-01, and add an EVF and all the video specs the movie aficionados incessantly bleat about. Expect another (compact) brick. Broadest appeal.

3) Go all out and make a kick-arse MF mirrorless to compliment the 645z, with EVF and video features like the APS-C camera above. Game changer.
1) What Q needs most is emphasis on small size and better functionality then phones. Compact zooms, DNG, viewfinder, useful buttons and wheels, ergonomy. Maybe even reduce the size by replacing the screen with a small EVF and have Wifi with sync function to view images on the phone screen.
2) Agree on the EVF and better video part, but K-02 should absolutely not be shaped like a brick or a soap.
3) Agree very much! A mirrorless digital MF camera with EVF would have no competition. The MF market needs mechanical renewal so bad and no one have picked up that business opportunity yet.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
adapters, camera, canon, dslr, fuji, fujifilm, innards, k-01, k-mount, lens, lenses, market, milc, mirrorless, pack, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, plenty, reflex, ricoh, sensor, system, technology
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale - Sold: Tokina AT-X 80-200/2.8 SD Ka-mount Lens with Hood and Case fwcetus Sold Items 7 09-24-2015 03:54 PM
upgrading from k-x should i go mirrorless? rabblefrabble Pentax DSLR Discussion 20 11-29-2014 03:53 PM
Ricoh's marketing email go straight to Spam folder RonakG Photographic Industry and Professionals 16 04-19-2014 11:08 AM
No FF for at least two years. normhead Pentax DSLR Discussion 22 10-02-2012 08:27 AM
I want to stay with Pentax, but which way to go? Horst Laumer Pentax DSLR Discussion 16 10-22-2011 05:41 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:22 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top