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04-05-2016, 02:10 PM   #196
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Companies can make products that become useful outside of their intended target audience. Such is happening now with Ricoh's Theta S. See the article on using the Theta in astronomy at SpaceWeather.com -- News and information about meteor showers, solar flares, auroras, and near-Earth asteroids

04-05-2016, 02:28 PM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
My very point is that the companies don't get to make that decision. Canikon can say "NO" to MILC all they want, but if customers want MILC, they will buy MILC from someone. The customers are ultimately the ones who decide whether to switch from buggies to automobiles, or from film to digital, or from DSLR to MILC. Ultimately, DSLR may remain as the dominant technology for the next fifty years, but if that happens it will be a result of consumer preference, not a result of what the suppliers want to manufacture.
QuoteOriginally posted by jbinpg Quote
Companies can make products that become useful outside of their intended target audience. Such is happening now with Ricoh's Theta S. See the article on using the Theta in astronomy at SpaceWeather.com -- News and information about meteor showers, solar flares, auroras, and near-Earth asteroids
The difference between Theta and a system camera, is that the surroundings of the system camera locks you in. You have lenses, flashes and stuff and that investment makes you wanne stay with your choice of system. On the other hand, things are moving, so a few years later customers do move around. Like we see with growing populariteit for the Sony A7-series.

Theta does very well for showing up at ver different area's.
04-05-2016, 02:59 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
My very point is that the companies don't get to make that decision. Canikon can say "NO" to MILC all they want, but if customers want MILC, they will buy MILC from someone. The customers are ultimately the ones who decide whether to switch from buggies to automobiles, or from film to digital, or from DSLR to MILC. Ultimately, DSLR may remain as the dominant technology for the next fifty years, but if that happens it will be a result of consumer preference, not a result of what the suppliers want to manufacture.
Oh I agree, but unless companies are properly invested and prepared then they will not be able to take advantage of any change in consumer buying habits. It will pass them buy. Consumers will buy better mobile phones instead, for example. And right now, only the big three three companies look as if they are invested enough to rise to any really major change in buying habits. Otherwise, all that spending power is more likely to move out of the industry than to settle for itty-bitty products from poorly prepared niche players. (Relatively speaking, if one is looking at the resources/infrastructure needed to make an impact with say 1.4 billion consumers in China or +/- another billion in India. These markets dwarf the West but one guesses they need big money to service.) Thus there may not be any big new names in the photography industry, just scorched earth and richer mobile phone outfits.

Last edited by mecrox; 04-05-2016 at 04:02 PM.
04-05-2016, 03:22 PM - 2 Likes   #199
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IMHO, going mirrorless doesn't make sense unless you go really big--medium format 6x6 big. this way you greatly reduce the bulk and weight of the body and end up with a camera usable outside the studio. MF users often make do with far fewer lenses then smaller format shooters do, so the need to pump out lots of new glass is reduced to a manageable level. Perhaps Pentax could work out a deal with Fuji or Mamiya to license a few of their lens formulas since they don't have much in their design portfolio that would accommodate the short flange distance.

04-05-2016, 05:18 PM   #200
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Remember when people said that the K-01 was too big for a mirrorless camera? My have times changed...
You picked the two MILCs that most in the MILC world claim are unnecessarily too big.
04-05-2016, 05:28 PM   #201
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The GH5 is due later this year,I'm wondering whether it'll go "BIG" too???
The just announced GX85 is about normal mirror less size so with GM5/GX85/GX8,Panasonic has the 3(mirror less)bears.!
04-05-2016, 08:16 PM   #202
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I spent some time reading this article today, where the author points out that when you take space out of the camera you end up giving it back to the lens. In some cases, the lens and body is physically larger than the full frame dslr equivalent.

Why Sony's Full Frame Pro Mirrorless Was a Fatal Mistake
04-05-2016, 08:27 PM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
I spent some time reading this article today, where the author points out that when you take space out of the camera you end up giving it back to the lens. In some cases, the lens and body is physically larger than the full frame dslr equivalent.

Why Sony's Full Frame Pro Mirrorless Was a Fatal Mistake
I don't think its quite that simple--much depends upon the design of the lens and what compromises they decide to make in the process. you can have a very compact rangfinder/lens combination if you make compact size one of your requirements. Just look at what Mamiya was able to do with their 7 series MF rangfinder. Now obviously rangfinder != MILC but when talking about flange distance from film/detector its close enough.

04-05-2016, 09:12 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clinton Quote
I spent some time reading this article today, where the author points out that when you take space out of the camera you end up giving it back to the lens. In some cases, the lens and body is physically larger than the full frame dslr equivalent.

Why Sony's Full Frame Pro Mirrorless Was a Fatal Mistake
Not in many cases,there will be some FF Sony users that only use the smaller lenses and the pancakes...so a very distinct advantage to them...There is a distinct weight advantage in all cases too....Plenty of commentators poked holes in that authors suggestions,some comment in the non Pentax section,the Lemmings thread.
04-05-2016, 10:07 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The difference between Theta and a system camera, is that the surroundings of the system camera locks you in. You have lenses, flashes and stuff and that investment makes you wanne stay with your choice of system. On the other hand, things are moving, so a few years later customers do move around. Like we see with growing populariteit for the Sony A7-series. Theta does very well for showing up at ver different area's.
That makes sense to me.
04-06-2016, 01:03 AM   #206
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QuoteOriginally posted by Robb Lincoln Quote
IMHO, going mirrorless doesn't make sense unless you go really big--medium format 6x6 big. this way you greatly reduce the bulk and weight of the body and end up with a camera usable outside the studio. MF users often make do with far fewer lenses then smaller format shooters do, so the need to pump out lots of new glass is reduced to a manageable level. Perhaps Pentax could work out a deal with Fuji or Mamiya to license a few of their lens formulas since they don't have much in their design portfolio that would accommodate the short flange distance.
I partly agree. If Pentax makes a MF MILC, then I think it should start with 645 digital crop and move its way up to larger sensors when the time is ready (sensor prices and availability). The mount should be compatible with at least full frame 645 image circle, maybe all the way up to 67 image circle. In current MF cameras the mirror and view finder system takes up a huge space that may be removed if they choose MILC. I just took a look at Mamiya 7 II and like the size and shape, bearing in mind the format its using.

With future MF sensors we should expect very high resolution and good results when cropping "digital zooming" more. This will reduce the need for lots of primes with slightly different focal lengths.
Another thing to expect is much smaller wide angle lenses and smaller large aperture normal lenses. Tele lenses may be the same size if cropping to smaller formats is a part of that equation (using the same physical focal length as on a smaller format, cropping get the same field of view). If I had a system like the one I describe I would probably reduce my lens selection to 3 lenses. Ultra wide, normal and tele primes, and I actually expect my photo bag to become much lighter.
04-06-2016, 02:42 AM - 1 Like   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by Robb Lincoln Quote
I don't think its quite that simple--much depends upon the design of the lens and what compromises they decide to make in the process. you can have a very compact rangfinder/lens combination if you make compact size one of your requirements. Just look at what Mamiya was able to do with their 7 series MF rangfinder. Now obviously rangfinder != MILC but when talking about flange distance from film/detector its close enough.
My understanding was that lenses will be smallest close to the registration distance. So the smallest lens in the K mount is the DA 40mm (well actually the 40mm xs). On a FE mount camera, such a lens would be somewhat larger, the same with 70mm lens like the DA 70. On the other hand, 20mm lenses are quite a bit smaller on FE mount.

I guess the question is what focal lengths you shoot the most and where you want your size advantage with regard to primes. When it comes to zooms, they all seem to be the same size and if you shoot mirrorless, there is little size advantage if you want f2.8 zooms, like I shoot with, for the most part.
04-06-2016, 08:32 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
My understanding was that lenses will be smallest close to the registration distance. So the smallest lens in the K mount is the DA 40mm (well actually the 40mm xs). On a FE mount camera, such a lens would be somewhat larger, the same with 70mm lens like the DA 70. On the other hand, 20mm lenses are quite a bit smaller on FE mount.

I guess the question is what focal lengths you shoot the most and where you want your size advantage with regard to primes. When it comes to zooms, they all seem to be the same size and if you shoot mirrorless, there is little size advantage if you want f2.8 zooms, like I shoot with, for the most part.
I think you are exactly right--a MICL would not offer any benefit for the type of shooting and the kind of lenses you use. And although I'n not sure about the effect the relationship between focal distance of lens and the flange distance of the camera has on the overall size of the lens, it sounds plausible to me.
04-06-2016, 09:59 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
if you shoot mirrorless, there is little size advantage if you want f2.8 zooms
But Pentax's f/2.8 mirrorless zoom does have a real size advantage:

SMC Pentax-Q 06 Telephoto Zoom 15-45mm F2.8 Reviews - Q-Mount Zoom Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

Just sayin'!
04-06-2016, 12:29 PM - 1 Like   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
But Pentax's f/2.8 mirrorless zoom does have a real size advantage:

SMC Pentax-Q 06 Telephoto Zoom 15-45mm F2.8 Reviews - Q-Mount Zoom Lenses - Pentax Lens Reviews & Lens Database

Just sayin'!
Well, I hate to bring up equivalence, but a lens would have to be a lot faster than f2.8 on a Q to have the same performance that a 24-70 f2.8 will have on full frame.
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