Ricoh want's to go mirrorless? With X-mount/Fujifilm? at least 2 years away.

**jlstrawman** · 03-14-2016, 06:48 AM

Originally posted by johnmflores

Panasonic GH4 uses CDAF with DFD and is very very fast.

I use a GH-4 and this is certainly correct.

derekkite · 03-14-2016, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by mecrox

Not for single shots, not at all, at least on my camera. I think PDAF is for tracking, which is fair enough.

No. CDAF doesn't know which way to go, PDAF does. Fast CDAF is paired with PDAF on sensor points.

Is there such a thing as -3ev pure CDAF?

mecrox · 03-14-2016, 07:07 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by derekkite

No. CDAF doesn't know which way to go, PDAF does. Fast CDAF is paired with PDAF on sensor points.

Is there such a thing as -3ev pure CDAF?

So what? So far as I know, many (most??) mirrorless cameras have CDAF but not PDAF and the world has not ended yet. The CDAF AF on my MILC is very fast and accurate. It does what I want and that's all that matters to me. In fact my keeper rate has gone up because I have fewer OOF shots these days compared to the results I was getting from a DSLR. I don't shoot sports/action and if I did I would use a different camera for that. Attempts to "prove" that one thing is better than another are a little pointless when cameras generally have got so good that whichever method, form factor, brand, etc, exceeds what nearly any user can do by several hundred per cent. Use both if it is causing sleepless nights. Above all, enjoy

reh321 · 03-14-2016, 07:14 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mecrox

So what? So far as I know, many (most??) mirrorless cameras have CDAF but not PDAF and the world has not ended yet. The CDAF AF on my MILC is very fast and accurate. It does what I want and that's all that matters to me. In fact my keeper rate has gone up because I have fewer OOF shots these days compared to the results I was getting from a DSLR. I don't shoot sports/action and if I did I would use a different camera for that. These constant attempts to "prove" that one thing is better than another are a little tiresome when either method, form factor, brand, etc, exceeds what nearly any user can do by several hundred per cent. Use both if it is causing sleepless nights

I guess I don't see it as a competition. My understanding is that PDAF is normally the fastest way to focus; CDAF is the most accurate {avoids the dreaded front/back focusing issue, for one thing}. Ultimately, the best is probably a hybrid system which uses PDAF to get to the right neighborhood and CDAF to do any needed fine-tuning.

johnmflores · 03-14-2016, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by derekkite

No. CDAF doesn't know which way to go, PDAF does. Fast CDAF is paired with PDAF on sensor points.

Is there such a thing as -3ev pure CDAF?

"Finally, the GH4 is capable of focusing at light levels down to -4EV, a challenge even for many phase-detect systems."

Panasonic GH4 Review - A completely new AF approach

shakereduced · 03-23-2016, 01:03 PM

The rumor as we know it says Fuji is the most likely candidate to partner with Ricoh, but I wonder if Olympus is another possibility. They filed patents for full frame mirrorless primes this year (20mm 1.4, 24 1.4, 28 f2, and 35 1.4), and have a recent history of sharing a mount with another company (Panasonic, who we also know is co-developing organic sensor technology with Fuji). Just food for thought.

Stickler · 03-23-2016, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Danas_Anis

I may be wrong, but isn't sony E mount made like an open standard similarly like m4/3 mount is and it would be wiser, if not going with k mount, choose a mount that has large support for various lenses and accessories? You can mount many lenses on E mount and they even can utilize autofocus. That would sell new mirrorless system pretty well. Fuji is also not very much into video stuff so it might be Fuji to go together with RP... You know, a felloship of we ignore this and that thing... Although I would love to see Samsung NX1 guts inside the possible new Pentax mirrorless. Interesting rumor, will sew how real it is in the future, but 2018?! That is a very long time period... Hopefully RP and the possible partner company whether it's Fuji or someone else will be considerably open about what they are doing and keep us informed,

I would look for this to be a Ricoh branded camera.

E-mount does make most sense given it's viability for FF also Sony revealed the specs back in 2011. (It would be nice to see them announce a partnership and then BAM! have lenses they've been designing around since 2011) Sony wins with budget friendlier compact lens designs, Ricoh wins with an existing camera user base that they can sell "ours handles better, costs less & is weather proof" even if they don't initially offer a FF mirrorless then the flagship is already there.

Apart from the APS-C future deadend, Fuji would also make sense, given their focus on large aperture lenses vs pentax's focus on compact so their could be synergies there. likewise with bayer (ricoh) vs foveon (fuji*) sensor options would provide some nice cross pollination. there could also be synergies with potential mirrorless Medium format systems with both Fuji and Pentax being in that space.

*Fuji does make some Bayer sensored cameras

reh321 · 03-23-2016, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Stickler

Apart from the APS-C future deadend ...

What is the basis of this statement??

Stickler · 03-23-2016, 02:50 PM

Originally posted by reh321

What is the basis of this statement??

The Fuji x-mount won't physically allow a 35mm sensor as far as I understand. I think Ricoh/Pentax would shy away from going all-in on aps-c again

TheGrandPrixKid · 03-28-2016, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by Shodra

The only way I see it working out is Ricoh developing and supporting a fully functional K to X-FF adapter to bridge the lack of lenses when Fuji goes FF. But then what is the long run gain for Ricoh? Now that they launched K mount FF and are pushing it quite a bit with lenses and making all these implicit commitments to keep developing the system, they are stuck at a large flange distance mount just as much as Canon and Nikon are.

Develop a complete lens lineup for K FF over the next few years and then jump ship in a coordinated manner?

On the bright side, an XTrans Q and a 645/67 ML would be very interesting. That would be my plan: Mirrorless MF. MF is where the mirror starts getting big enough to really get in the way, and you don't need the fastest EVF, nobody shoot sports on any kind of 67 anyway.

FUJI WILL NOT GO FF!!!! They have said at every major show and interview that Mirrorless is aimed squarely at APSC. They are looking to get into the Digital Medium Format and that could be an interesting conversation regarding shared mounts.

I wish Pentax had gone into the APSC mirrorless market sooner. (Wouldn't of had to sell my Pentax gear , except my K10D) I for one would buy without hesitation if they used X mount as Fuji Glass is excellent.

Kunzite · 03-28-2016, 04:21 PM

Who knows for sure what will happen... Samsung had a "ditch your DSLR" campaign just before ditching their mirrorless cameras. Fuji will say what they have to say, aggressively downplaying the advantages of the larger formats (and up-selling the advantages of the smaller one) so they would sell more.

At least Pentax had the decency of saying "not for now" when asked about the FF (until they had plans to make one, that is).

Caat · 03-29-2016, 04:06 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Who knows for sure what will happen... Samsung had a "ditch your DSLR" campaign just before ditching their mirrorless cameras. Fuji will say what they have to say, aggressively downplaying the advantages of the larger formats (and up-selling the advantages of the smaller one) so they would sell more.

At least Pentax had the decency of saying "not for now" when asked about the FF (until they had plans to make one, that is).

Yes, exactly. A company will say the best thing for it to say at the moment it says it. It has little bearing on what it might do in the future.

Stickler · 03-29-2016, 06:47 AM

Fuji is painted into a corner with the current x-mount. Like m43, the mount isn't physically big enough to support FF, which forces them to stay APS-C unless they change mounts.

Now a Med Format mirrorless mount has long made sense, I could see where Ricoh & Fuji could develop a new short flanged 645 sized mount together. This would allow them also to have camera models offering a variety of sensor sizes from APS-C (less likely) , 35mm FF, cropped MF and eventually uncropped MF. This new mount could be easily adapted to accept X?, K, K (MF) lenses and maintain support, and dominate that space, and possibly even lure FF Canikon folks looking for an upgrade path (to MF) or access to a foveon sensor.

starjedi · 03-29-2016, 06:47 AM

Originally posted by Caat

Yes, exactly. A company will say the best thing for it to say at the moment it says it. It has little bearing on what it might do in the future.

Samsung NX1 price is much higher than similar APS-C DSLR and mirrorless... It is doomed to fail...

Zygonyx · 03-29-2016, 06:52 AM

NX-1 is finished... like all Samsung cameras : only last inventories in some places.

03-14-2016, 07:07 AM - 1 Like	#108
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	Originally posted by derekkite No. CDAF doesn't know which way to go, PDAF does. Fast CDAF is paired with PDAF on sensor points. Is there such a thing as -3ev pure CDAF? So what? So far as I know, many (most??) mirrorless cameras have CDAF but not PDAF and the world has not ended yet. The CDAF AF on my MILC is very fast and accurate. It does what I want and that's all that matters to me. In fact my keeper rate has gone up because I have fewer OOF shots these days compared to the results I was getting from a DSLR. I don't shoot sports/action and if I did I would use a different camera for that. Attempts to "prove" that one thing is better than another are a little pointless when cameras generally have got so good that whichever method, form factor, brand, etc, exceeds what nearly any user can do by several hundred per cent. Use both if it is causing sleepless nights. Above all, enjoy Last edited by mecrox; 03-14-2016 at 07:14 AM.

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03-14-2016, 06:48 AM	#106
jlstrawman Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Midwest US Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,058	Originally posted by johnmflores Panasonic GH4 uses CDAF with DFD and is very very fast. I use a GH-4 and this is certainly correct.

03-14-2016, 06:49 AM	#107
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	Originally posted by mecrox Not for single shots, not at all, at least on my camera. I think PDAF is for tracking, which is fair enough. No. CDAF doesn't know which way to go, PDAF does. Fast CDAF is paired with PDAF on sensor points. Is there such a thing as -3ev pure CDAF?

03-14-2016, 07:14 AM - 1 Like	#109
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by mecrox So what? So far as I know, many (most??) mirrorless cameras have CDAF but not PDAF and the world has not ended yet. The CDAF AF on my MILC is very fast and accurate. It does what I want and that's all that matters to me. In fact my keeper rate has gone up because I have fewer OOF shots these days compared to the results I was getting from a DSLR. I don't shoot sports/action and if I did I would use a different camera for that. These constant attempts to "prove" that one thing is better than another are a little tiresome when either method, form factor, brand, etc, exceeds what nearly any user can do by several hundred per cent. Use both if it is causing sleepless nights I guess I don't see it as a competition. My understanding is that PDAF is normally the fastest way to focus; CDAF is the most accurate {avoids the dreaded front/back focusing issue, for one thing}. Ultimately, the best is probably a hybrid system which uses PDAF to get to the right neighborhood and CDAF to do any needed fine-tuning.

03-14-2016, 09:06 AM	#110
johnmflores Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Somerville, NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 5,361	Originally posted by derekkite No. CDAF doesn't know which way to go, PDAF does. Fast CDAF is paired with PDAF on sensor points. Is there such a thing as -3ev pure CDAF? "Finally, the GH4 is capable of focusing at light levels down to -4EV, a challenge even for many phase-detect systems." Panasonic GH4 Review - A completely new AF approach

03-23-2016, 01:03 PM	#111
shakereduced Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2015 Posts: 40	The rumor as we know it says Fuji is the most likely candidate to partner with Ricoh, but I wonder if Olympus is another possibility. They filed patents for full frame mirrorless primes this year (20mm 1.4, 24 1.4, 28 f2, and 35 1.4), and have a recent history of sharing a mount with another company (Panasonic, who we also know is co-developing organic sensor technology with Fuji). Just food for thought.

03-23-2016, 02:22 PM	#112
Stickler Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Midwest Posts: 98	Originally posted by Danas_Anis I may be wrong, but isn't sony E mount made like an open standard similarly like m4/3 mount is and it would be wiser, if not going with k mount, choose a mount that has large support for various lenses and accessories? You can mount many lenses on E mount and they even can utilize autofocus. That would sell new mirrorless system pretty well. Fuji is also not very much into video stuff so it might be Fuji to go together with RP... You know, a felloship of we ignore this and that thing... Although I would love to see Samsung NX1 guts inside the possible new Pentax mirrorless. Interesting rumor, will sew how real it is in the future, but 2018?! That is a very long time period... Hopefully RP and the possible partner company whether it's Fuji or someone else will be considerably open about what they are doing and keep us informed, I would look for this to be a Ricoh branded camera. E-mount does make most sense given it's viability for FF also Sony revealed the specs back in 2011. (It would be nice to see them announce a partnership and then BAM! have lenses they've been designing around since 2011) Sony wins with budget friendlier compact lens designs, Ricoh wins with an existing camera user base that they can sell "ours handles better, costs less & is weather proof" even if they don't initially offer a FF mirrorless then the flagship is already there. Apart from the APS-C future deadend, Fuji would also make sense, given their focus on large aperture lenses vs pentax's focus on compact so their could be synergies there. likewise with bayer (ricoh) vs foveon (fuji) sensor options would provide some nice cross pollination. there could also be synergies with potential mirrorless Medium format systems with both Fuji and Pentax being in that space. Fuji does make some Bayer sensored cameras

03-23-2016, 02:38 PM	#113
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by Stickler Apart from the APS-C future deadend ... What is the basis of this statement??

03-23-2016, 02:50 PM	#114
Stickler Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Midwest Posts: 98	Originally posted by reh321 What is the basis of this statement?? The Fuji x-mount won't physically allow a 35mm sensor as far as I understand. I think Ricoh/Pentax would shy away from going all-in on aps-c again

03-28-2016, 04:11 PM	#115
TheGrandPrixKid Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: UK Posts: 34	Originally posted by Shodra The only way I see it working out is Ricoh developing and supporting a fully functional K to X-FF adapter to bridge the lack of lenses when Fuji goes FF. But then what is the long run gain for Ricoh? Now that they launched K mount FF and are pushing it quite a bit with lenses and making all these implicit commitments to keep developing the system, they are stuck at a large flange distance mount just as much as Canon and Nikon are. Develop a complete lens lineup for K FF over the next few years and then jump ship in a coordinated manner? On the bright side, an XTrans Q and a 645/67 ML would be very interesting. That would be my plan: Mirrorless MF. MF is where the mirror starts getting big enough to really get in the way, and you don't need the fastest EVF, nobody shoot sports on any kind of 67 anyway. FUJI WILL NOT GO FF!!!! They have said at every major show and interview that Mirrorless is aimed squarely at APSC. They are looking to get into the Digital Medium Format and that could be an interesting conversation regarding shared mounts. I wish Pentax had gone into the APSC mirrorless market sooner. (Wouldn't of had to sell my Pentax gear , except my K10D) I for one would buy without hesitation if they used X mount as Fuji Glass is excellent.

03-28-2016, 04:21 PM	#116
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Who knows for sure what will happen... Samsung had a "ditch your DSLR" campaign just before ditching their mirrorless cameras. Fuji will say what they have to say, aggressively downplaying the advantages of the larger formats (and up-selling the advantages of the smaller one) so they would sell more. At least Pentax had the decency of saying "not for now" when asked about the FF (until they had plans to make one, that is).

03-29-2016, 04:06 AM	#117
Caat Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: United Kingdom Photos: Albums Posts: 927	Originally posted by Kunzite Who knows for sure what will happen... Samsung had a "ditch your DSLR" campaign just before ditching their mirrorless cameras. Fuji will say what they have to say, aggressively downplaying the advantages of the larger formats (and up-selling the advantages of the smaller one) so they would sell more. At least Pentax had the decency of saying "not for now" when asked about the FF (until they had plans to make one, that is). Yes, exactly. A company will say the best thing for it to say at the moment it says it. It has little bearing on what it might do in the future.

03-29-2016, 06:47 AM	#118
Stickler Forum Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Midwest Posts: 98	Fuji is painted into a corner with the current x-mount. Like m43, the mount isn't physically big enough to support FF, which forces them to stay APS-C unless they change mounts. Now a Med Format mirrorless mount has long made sense, I could see where Ricoh & Fuji could develop a new short flanged 645 sized mount together. This would allow them also to have camera models offering a variety of sensor sizes from APS-C (less likely) , 35mm FF, cropped MF and eventually uncropped MF. This new mount could be easily adapted to accept X?, K, K (MF) lenses and maintain support, and dominate that space, and possibly even lure FF Canikon folks looking for an upgrade path (to MF) or access to a foveon sensor.

03-29-2016, 06:47 AM	#119
starjedi Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: New Jersey Posts: 932	Originally posted by Caat Yes, exactly. A company will say the best thing for it to say at the moment it says it. It has little bearing on what it might do in the future. Samsung NX1 price is much higher than similar APS-C DSLR and mirrorless... It is doomed to fail...

03-29-2016, 06:52 AM	#120
Zygonyx Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Ile de France Posts: 4,033	NX-1 is finished... like all Samsung cameras : only last inventories in some places.