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06-10-2016, 04:52 PM   #106
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Well, monochrome is both very, very wrong and partially right
Yes, Pentax has experience they can directly translate into a new large sensor mirrorless system; and they're building more of it (e.g. with the K-70's on-sensor PDAF system).
At the same time, they're still missing stuff like last generation EVFs and cheap, compact builds.

If they'll make a MILC 645... it's not entirely impossible, they said in an interview that it makes sense from a technical point of view (because the benefits would be larger, proportionally with the mirror/mirror box' size I guess). But I wouldn't hold my breath.

06-10-2016, 05:03 PM - 1 Like   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
You've already forgotten about the K-01?
You mean the K-30-minus?
06-10-2016, 05:06 PM   #108
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You mean the K-30-minus?


Missing:
OVF
Dual wheels
WR
Good ergonomics

I'd say that's a K-30-minus
06-10-2016, 05:11 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
You've already forgotten about the K-01?
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
My Q-7 is very disappointed to learn that it doesn't exist ... but I basically agree with your main point. I've been saying for some time now that Pentax needs to introduce a new "Q", this one with an EVF, to get more experience with that technology. I would also argue that they should build a larger MILC {K-70 looks like an excellent starting point for that} with EVF before they consider at all developing an MF MILC.
I meant two things:

1. No demonstrated experience integrating an EVF into their electronic engineering catalog
2. No demonstrated experience with the necessary manufacturing process design engineering beyond Q. Process and tooling / automation are Sony's main strength and it isn't clear at all that what they've learned from Q I scalable to a 100Mp MF Wildebeest. *

But whatever. I have no dog. I don't even have a hunt.


* Ricoh's office equipment manufacturing process engineering catalog is a wild card if made available to Pentax

06-10-2016, 05:16 PM   #110
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I think the idea of a mirrorless 645 is quite a good idea, because one of the main criticisms of mirrorless (focusing speed) is less of an issue with the typical uses of a medium format camera. Also, the mirror in medium format cameras is so large that it is difficult to reduce mirror shock, as Pentax engineers have said in an interview. Finally, medium format is often used on a tripod, so the tilt screen is very useful. I'm betting that a lot of 645z users rely on live view more than they thought they would.

The other thing that is suited to medium format is pixel shift. I think medium format shooters are more likely to shooting static subjects, and more likely to have full control over the subject. Ricoh is now in the situation where the K-1 can equal the 645z in pixel shift mode. At some point Sony is likely to do the same with their FF cameras. So in order to differentiate their lines, I think logic suggests that Ricoh should try to get pixel shift working with the larger sensor, even if it is simpler, slower system than their small format cameras. However, I was really impressed that Ricoh managed to increase the effectiveness of SR while increasing the sensor size in the K-1, so perhaps they could do the same trick again, or perhaps medium format is a step too far.

The camera I imagine is like a smaller, lighter, mirrorless 645z, with the cross-tilt screen with an attachable folding screen shade included. On the top would be an attachment for a high quality EVF, sold separately. It would have the same mount and registration distance, and it would have sensor shift for Real Resolution and Astrotracer, even if it did not have image stabilisation on the same level of the K-series.
06-10-2016, 05:19 PM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by bertwert Quote


Missing:
OVF
Dual wheels
WR
Good ergonomics

I'd say that's a K-30-minus
Actually, the new technology used in the K-30 was introduced in the K-01. Just add the mirror and OVF and a few external bits. Internally they're very similar cameras. In some ways K-01 was a very successful technology project that flopped as a marketing product.
06-10-2016, 08:02 PM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think the idea of a mirrorless 645 is quite a good idea, because one of the main criticisms of mirrorless (focusing speed) is less of an issue with the typical uses of a medium format camera. Also, the mirror in medium format cameras is so large that it is difficult to reduce mirror shock, as Pentax engineers have said in an interview. Finally, medium format is often used on a tripod, so the tilt screen is very useful. I'm betting that a lot of 645z users rely on live view more than they thought they would.

The other thing that is suited to medium format is pixel shift. I think medium format shooters are more likely to shooting static subjects, and more likely to have full control over the subject. Ricoh is now in the situation where the K-1 can equal the 645z in pixel shift mode. At some point Sony is likely to do the same with their FF cameras. So in order to differentiate their lines, I think logic suggests that Ricoh should try to get pixel shift working with the larger sensor, even if it is simpler, slower system than their small format cameras. However, I was really impressed that Ricoh managed to increase the effectiveness of SR while increasing the sensor size in the K-1, so perhaps they could do the same trick again, or perhaps medium format is a step too far.

The camera I imagine is like a smaller, lighter, mirrorless 645z, with the cross-tilt screen with an attachable folding screen shade included. On the top would be an attachment for a high quality EVF, sold separately. It would have the same mount and registration distance, and it would have sensor shift for Real Resolution and Astrotracer, even if it did not have image stabilisation on the same level of the K-series.
Let's see what Fuji starts with, i bet by the end of 2017.
06-11-2016, 02:51 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I meant two things:

1. No demonstrated experience integrating an EVF into their electronic engineering catalog
2. No demonstrated experience with the necessary manufacturing process design engineering beyond Q. Process and tooling / automation are Sony's main strength and it isn't clear at all that what they've learned from Q I scalable to a 100Mp MF Wildebeest. *
Just as I thought
Was it LensRental who dismantled Sony cameras and were impressed by the efficient design? Indeed, Pentax needs to learn a bit from that to compete successfully - though with the 645 it probably isn't as important (they would make what, some 500 units/month?). With medium format, #1 is likely what matters more.

(note that "efficient" doesn't necessarily mean "better", just cost effective and compact. Remember the Sony's wobbly mount? I'm sure it was "efficient" to make ;-) )

06-11-2016, 02:56 AM   #114
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What's so hard about EVF, it's just a piece of tech you can buy.
06-11-2016, 04:41 AM   #115
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Buying it is the easy part. The hard one, probably, is that in the end you'd get an EVF no better than what Sony has on their APS-C cameras.
06-11-2016, 07:02 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Just as I thought
Was it LensRental who dismantled Sony cameras and were impressed by the efficient design? Indeed, Pentax needs to learn a bit from that to compete successfully - though with the 645 it probably isn't as important (they would make what, some 500 units/month?). With medium format, #1 is likely what matters more.

(note that "efficient" doesn't necessarily mean "better", just cost effective and compact. Remember the Sony's wobbly mount? I'm sure it was "efficient" to make ;-) )
I'm not convinced that Pentax needs to compete with Sony in consumer design - Sony has an enormous head-start in that. Pentax needs to make a good solid Pentax camera. {and if they did follow Sony methods, the PF server would crash under the load of posts complaining about their use of plastic and what my Dad called "tin-foil" construction}
06-11-2016, 07:14 AM   #117
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
and what my Dad called "tin-foil" construction}
Hey, don't knock it! I make all my hats out of that stuff!!
06-11-2016, 07:27 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm not convinced that Pentax needs to compete with Sony in consumer design - Sony has an enormous head-start in that. Pentax needs to make a good solid Pentax camera. {and if they did follow Sony methods, the PF server would crash under the load of posts complaining about their use of plastic and what my Dad called "tin-foil" construction}
Not for the medium format, you're right.
To be truly competitive on the small sensor MILC arena, they might have to introduce wobbly mounts, holes for artistic light streaks and other signature features of a cost effective construction But I hope they'll find a better way.
06-11-2016, 07:55 AM   #119
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Ricoh has made some interesting moves with the 645 system that I have noticed in Japan.

- They released the DFA 35mm lens. This is a "full frame" MF lens.
- They put up the Japanese prices on the 645z body, and most of lenses around last November by around 10%.
- The FA lenses were rereleased with new product codes and a higher price, but the lenses themselves are the same. You can now see both the old and new versions available at different prices at some retailers
- The DA 28-45mm and DA 55mm lenses have been out of stock in some retailers for a couple of months. It's not unusual to see Pentax lenses out of stock at these shops, but they are usually back in stock pretty soon after. Of course the 25mm has been gone for a while now.
- Now we hear rumours of a 645 camera with the "full frame" 100mp sensor in the works.

This could all be coincidental, but I think some repositioning is happening. With the K-1 on the market, Ricoh may want to put some more distance/differentiation between the two lines, in terms of price and capability. So I'm speculating that the 100mp rumour is true, and that the system will be "full frame" from now on.
06-11-2016, 08:40 AM   #120
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QuoteOriginally posted by bertwert Quote


Missing:
OVF
Dual wheels
WR
Good ergonomics

I'd say that's a K-30-minus
K-01:

Quieter
Better CDAF
Higher quality feel
Better ergonomics with short lenses

No aperture control issues

I had both the K-01 and K-30 and used them in parallel. I like the K-30 a lot, but it's sold and replaced with a K-5 II, and the K-01 is still here.

Anyway, closer to the original topic, I wouldn't be surprised that if Pentax does decide to introduce a mirrorless MF camera, they do so with a kick-ass, best-in-class EVF.
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