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07-15-2008, 01:59 AM   #181
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
The D300 is selling way more than the 5D even through the 5D is now available at half its original price and there are still stocks of the camera 3 years on. What does that tell you?

It tells me...

...
What about potential or current pentax users switching to Canon or Nikon?

07-15-2008, 04:23 AM   #182
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The main reason, apart from Pentax marketing and market penetration, is that the K20D and K200D are too close to each other, and to their predecessors. Pentax need to expand their line-up and differentiate their models.
Something I can totally agree with. The existence of the K200D totally befuddles me. Instead Pentax need a cheaper entry model. And yes they need a top-end pro model as well. And a new Pentax Limited metal black-body to eat Leica sales.
07-15-2008, 04:31 AM   #183
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To put this discussion into perspective, I decided to take a look back in history. I took a snapshot at an arbitrary year, 1980:

K mount bodies in production at this time (1980):
  • LX
  • MX
  • ME + ME Super
  • MV + MV1
  • K2 DMD
  • K1000
which are 6 bodies, as opposed to only 2 bodies now (K200D, K20D). Also, I don't actually get the point why they are all called K*D now.

Back to topic, I see Pentax to be able to deliver into the different markets:
  • Pro (LX) -> FF (LX2D, Pentax exclusive)
  • Traveller/Landscape (MX) -> FF in istDS sized body (MX2D Limited)
  • Enthusiast/SemiPro -> (K20D)
  • Mid range -> (K200D)
  • Entry level (ME Super) -> (K2000D, Samsung exclusive)
Which is 5 bodies at a time. This is something to be done to preserve the brand anyway.

Last edited by falconeye; 07-15-2008 at 04:57 AM.
07-15-2008, 04:31 AM   #184
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
A lot of the good Pentax manual focus lenses have been converted to the Canon mount and used very successfully on Canons 21mp FF body. Some of them are generally considered to be the best lens of its type ever made in spite of being over 20 years old.
Pål,

I am genuinely willing to change my opinion if you can provide some proof that supports your claims (at least some links in regard to usage of old Pentax glass - remember not FA limiteds! on Canon 21 Mp sensor). Otherwise I will stick to my (and many others) assertion that old lenses (as you put it over 20 years and even 'younger') have (most of them) lots of CA, and even on APS-C sensors show uneven resolution (center/border) and disturbing vignette wide open which are not very good signs at all for a future FF performance. I also conceded to you that in some cases "reasonable results" can be obtained but by no means outstanding ones. It all depends on what "quality" means for one individual. And finally please don't bother tell me that some of this flaws could be compuer corrected because it's not a viable argument. We must compare lenses in "raw performance" so to speak.

I told you there is no sense in denying the improvement in materials, coatings and technology last decade has brought. It's all a matter of cost and I can guarantee that any major manufacturer can make stunning lenses for the "right price".


Radu

07-15-2008, 04:47 AM   #185
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Something I can totally agree with. The existence of the K200D totally befuddles me. Instead Pentax need a cheaper entry model. And yes they need a top-end pro model as well. And a new Pentax Limited metal black-body to eat Leica sales.
Rparmar,

For sure a cheaper model it's the next one to arrive. I cannot disclose too much but it will be 'significantly' cheaper/lighter than k200D.

Radu
07-15-2008, 04:48 AM   #186
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QuoteOriginally posted by jake123 Quote
What about potential or current pentax users switching to Canon or Nikon?
That is a very good point. Some of my recent shots got pretty good reactions, i got some payed jobs proposals from a business or two, including a theater. I think that once you get paid, you have a great responsibility and you have to make everything in your power to deliver good results. You need good reliable tools to do that, and if you are successful, those 3000$+ bodies become less and less inaccessible.

QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Something I can totally agree with. The existence of the K200D totally befuddles me. Instead Pentax need a cheaper entry model. And yes they need a top-end pro model as well. And a new Pentax Limited metal black-body to eat Leica sales.
I have to disagree. The K200D is basically exactly what Canon did with their 450D: step up a notch. In September (or sooner) we will see the K2000D, which will go head to head with the 1000D and D60. Since the D40, the "entry-level" got lower and the K200D and 450D fill that gap.

I totally agree with the Limited body. Maybe it won't eat Leica sales, because those people are fanatics without reason, but it will be great for brand awareness.
07-15-2008, 04:50 AM   #187
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Pål,

I am genuinely willing to change my opinion if you can provide some proof that supports your claims (at least some links in regard to usage of old Pentax glass - remember not FA limiteds! on Canon 21 Mp sensor). Otherwise I will stick to my (and many others) assertion that old lenses (as you put it over 20 years and even 'younger') have (most of them) lots of CA, and even on APS-C sensors show uneven resolution (center/border) and disturbing vignette wide open which are not very good signs at all for a future FF performance. I also conceded to you that in some cases "reasonable results" can be obtained but by no means outstanding ones. It all depends on what "quality" means for one individual. And finally please don't bother tell me that some of this flaws could be compuer corrected because it's not a viable argument. We must compare lenses in "raw performance" so to speak.

I told you there is no sense in denying the improvement in materials, coatings and technology last decade has brought. It's all a matter of cost and I can guarantee that any major manufacturer can make stunning lenses for the "right price".


Radu
There you go
Canon 85mm f1.2 L (Mark II) vs.
Pentax SMC-A* 85mm f1.4 That is an immensely impressive capture by the Pentax SMC A – wide open, against the Canon half a stop down. You'll have to excuse me while I go a bit purple here, becuase that is the sharpest 'corner' I ever seen any lens produce at this aperture (f1.4).
07-15-2008, 05:27 AM   #188
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I have a look at Pentax's lenses roadmap one more time and have no any hopes to see FF this year. ...


I've said it before but it doesn't hurt repeating it.
The DA* 60-250/4 ED IF was full frame on the first roadmap. It probably still is. Theres probably no point making such a lens with an APS restricted image circle. The DA* 55/1.4 could also be a FF lens - are there any gains of not making it so? The DA* 30mm could be FF too. It is after all very close to the 31 LImited and could be a DA* version of that lens: ie DA* 30/1.8.
Then theres all the lenses not on the roadmap. In addition, many older FA construction could probably be reintroduced with limited design changes; mostly new correcting elements optimized for digital. Also, Pentax have lots of designs not introduced like 18/2.8; 90/3.5 Macro, 118/2.4; 150/2 etc...

07-15-2008, 05:42 AM   #189
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Teo,

I am at work now and I don't have that much time to research if there is a second part of this review. Though I read pretty fast:

"Having committed to chickening out thus, the least I could do to make amends was to test both lenses on the 400D (AKA Rebel XTi), which is more revealing across the central two thirds of a proper frame, but which sadly tells us nothing about the corners of a 35mm image. If it proves itself here, I will mod it for full frame testing later!"

I was talking about the affirmation of Pentax glass performing on 21 Mp FF Canon sensor as presented by Pal in the original post I replied. This is no FF at all let alone 21 Mp

Radu
07-15-2008, 06:16 AM   #190
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I agree. Like formula racing, all auto brands need an "ICON". We won't buy an F1 race car, but we can sure dream about the possibility of driving one. It is important for the brand identity to know that R&D are striving to develop advanced technologies and filter those advances in to the market place. It just bolsters the brands credibility in the eyes of the consumer.

Ben
But why does the ICON have to be the same "me too" ICON that everyone else makes? Do Subaru have to make a sports car or a luxury car to compete with Toyota or BMW? No. Instead they make very hot versions of their saloon cars and compete in a totally different arena with only one competitor (Mitsubishi) who are in a similar category.

In fact most car companies stick to a niche. You may want a Ferrari, but NasCar sells more cars in the US than Indy Cars, and thats based on family saloons.

For Pentax to follow Canon and Nikon would betray a gross lack of imagination and bankrupt them overnight. Nor is there any need. Plenty of buyers dont want a brick and as you have proved, a K20D is capable of very demanding pro results, therefore for 99% of photographers FF is no more than an indulgence.
07-15-2008, 06:51 AM   #191
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
But why does the ICON have to be the same "me too" ICON that everyone else makes? .

It doesn't!
28mp (if true) against Nikons 12mp and Canon rumored 16mp, will certainly not be me too, but set new resolution standards. Then theres the issue of what else this camera will offer. Pentax have many interesting patents.
It doesn't surprise me that Nikon first FF camera is 12mp and Pentax first FF is possibly 28mp (provided the rumors are true). This reflects som deep philosophies inside the companies and reflect their target markets.
And if the mp number is correct, then this camera is indeed both the high-end APS camera (in cropped mode) and high res FF camera in one.
07-15-2008, 07:04 AM   #192
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
You really beleive Pentax would be stupid enough to put FF lenses on the roadmap?

LOL

The reason we got a roadmap in the first place was that there were no (OK - very few) lenses for the DSLR's (APS). Now that there are no Pentax FF, theres no need to put FF lenses on the roadmap. After the FF camera is released (provided such a camera exist ), we will probably see future FF lenses on future roadmaps...
07-15-2008, 07:36 AM   #193
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The reason we got a roadmap in the first place was that there were no (OK - very few) lenses for the DSLR's (APS). Now that there are no Pentax FF, theres no need to put FF lenses on the roadmap. After the FF camera is released (provided such a camera exist ), we will probably see future FF lenses on future roadmaps...
You are kind of wrong again because in earlier roadmaps there was a DFA 645 55/2.8 even though there was no digital 645D. Even more there was a target of availability of around the launch of 645D. So this could be applied to FF lenses let alone the simple fact that a newly produced FF lens could be use fully on an APS-C camera. And of course the fact that on the roadmaps there are in clear 2 DFA lenses (50 and 100 Macro).

QuoteQuote:
A lot of the good Pentax manual focus lenses have been converted to the Canon mount and used very successfully on Canons 21mp FF body. Some of them are generally considered to be the best lens of its type ever made in spite of being over 20 years old.
I am still waiting for some facts behind this statement.

Radu
07-15-2008, 09:00 AM   #194
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
You are kind of wrong again because in earlier roadmaps there was a DFA 645 55/2.8 even though there was no digital 645D. Even more there was a target of availability of around the launch of 645D. So this could be applied to FF lenses let alone the simple fact that a newly produced FF lens could be use fully on an APS-C camera. And of course the fact that on the roadmaps there are in clear 2 DFA lenses (50 and 100 Macro).
Old DFA have an aperture ring and may be construed to work with film. 60-250 has no aperture ring and cannot be used easily with a film camera, thus the use of the moniker DFA is somewhat flawed in reference to the 60-250, but the fact it was there suggests it is designed to cover the full 35mm frame. Why build a crippled lens for a film camera? They wouldn't. Random guess then what it could be for?


QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA:
I am still waiting for some facts behind this statement.

Radu
You don't have to wait for proof, just have a look for M42 on Canons out there (and the D3 too) and the Takumars (for one) are very highly regarded.

There is no question some changes in multi-coating have optimized how light interacts with a digital sensor, but that doesn't affect vignetting, MTF or basic optical design. This current domination of APS-C digital sensors is a small drop of time in a bucket over 100 years old. Many optical formulas were conceived starting from the late 1800's and have only seen tweaks since then. The Carl Zeiss Planar was first produced in 1896 and is accepted as one of the most distortion free and brightly lit optical formulas in existance. The rise of digital has done nothing to improve this specifically, just alter the coating.

I don't mean to be personal, I'm sure we're all good folk. I just sometimes read in here that people seem personally invested in their guess about what Pentax will do even against logic. Lets just see what happens, and none of us will need to eat our words.

Last edited by thePiRaTE!!; 07-15-2008 at 09:08 AM.
07-15-2008, 09:44 AM   #195
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QuoteOriginally posted by thePiRaTE!! Quote
Old DFA have an aperture ring and may be construed to work with film. 60-250 has no aperture ring and cannot be used easily with a film camera, thus the use of the moniker DFA is somewhat flawed in reference to the 60-250, but the fact it was there suggests it is designed to cover the full 35mm frame. Why build a crippled lens for a film camera? They wouldn't. Random guess then what it could be for?




You don't have to wait for proof, just have a look for M42 on Canons out there (and the D3 too) and the Takumars (for one) are very highly regarded.

There is no question some changes in multi-coating have optimized how light interacts with a digital sensor, but that doesn't affect vignetting, MTF or basic optical design. This current domination of APS-C digital sensors is a small drop of time in a bucket over 100 years old. Many optical formulas were conceived starting from the late 1800's and have only seen tweaks since then. The Carl Zeiss Planar was first produced in 1896 and is accepted as one of the most distortion free and brightly lit optical formulas in existance. The rise of digital has done nothing to improve this specifically, just alter the coating.

I don't mean to be personal, I'm sure we're all good folk. I just sometimes read in here that people seem personally invested in their guess about what Pentax will do even against logic. Lets just see what happens, and none of us will need to eat our words.
Kelly,

First of all you must know I have no personal crusade here. I am though very interested in learning new stuff and I suspect for many of us this is the reason we spend some time here. I happen to have 2 old Takumars and I see some limits even on my camera. I just say for the foreseeable FF sensor (of high res not the 12 Mps of D3 for example) this limits will abruptly widen and I don't think it's fair to give hope to people that they could buy a 3K FF body and use whatever 20 USD lens on it. I know you're a Zeiss man and you must not forget that I don't dispute the optical formulas (which could be unchanged for decades or even more) but I see BIG progress in the advent of better glass, coatings and production methods. And your Zeisses are made in 2007 or 2008 not in the 70’s...Also almost any test in photozone done with older Pentax lenses show average at best MTF, some vignette wide open even on APS-C and exaggerate amounts of CA. That's why I suspect they will generally fail the FF hi res sensor test.

Because you mention it, IMO it's against the logic for Pentax to haste an investment in FF as an ultimate end. If they make an average camera with many parts borrowed from the K20D and they'll sell more than a few thousands in a years they have to be ecstatic. I said it before and I'll say it once more if they want to go FF as an economic proposition not as an "I have to have a FF model since anyone else has at least one" I think they'll need a professional system with state of the art tech in cameras (not just a good sensor) and a range of Limiteds and *s specially designed (or should I say optimized?!) for that specific task in mind. In the end a system that could sustain itself by the lenses it sells and by the technologies that will come down in the Pentax range and improve their competiveness.

In the end I asked Pal for a proof because he made a very specific allegation and I hope he has something to back it up. It's just like in X files "I want to believe" but not just words

Radu
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