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07-15-2008, 01:21 PM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
It doesn't!
28mp (if true) against Nikons 12mp and Canon rumored 16mp, will certainly not be me too, but set new resolution standards. Then theres the issue of what else this camera will offer. Pentax have many interesting patents.
It doesn't surprise me that Nikon first FF camera is 12mp and Pentax first FF is possibly 28mp (provided the rumors are true). This reflects som deep philosophies inside the companies and reflect their target markets.
And if the mp number is correct, then this camera is indeed both the high-end APS camera (in cropped mode) and high res FF camera in one.
Sounds like the A900 (24MP) to me. A high MP full frame camera. Then theres the 1DS (21) and the upcoming D3X (24). Seems like a kinda crowded old market.

Now I have a 4GB dual core PC with a high speed graphics card and its already struggling with 15MP TIFF files when I have a couple of layers open in photoshop.

Plus my printer only prints up to 13X19 (which is still way too small to show any loss of detail) and furthermore any resolution advantage I would get from 28MP wouldnt show up without a tripod so would be largely academic.

So unless I am a pro its pretty pointless having 15+ MP (15 being enough for a double page magazine spread with a little cropping). But I would hazard a guess that most pros who do need more would veer away from a company that has no pro support.

So, your entire market consists of a tiny fraction of existing pentax enthusiasts with lots of expensive legacy lenses with $3000 to spend just to make a point. And Ben of course

Except that faced with a bill for $3000 vs sponsorship from Nikon and 3 free D3X's he'd be mad not to crack....

07-15-2008, 02:00 PM   #197
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I think some people are confusing what Pentax needs to do with what they want Pentax to do
We use a saying that goes something like this: It's easy to swing in the nettles with somebody else's d**k. That being said I'm sure Pentax has given serious thought to their future cameras and lenses. More than all of us.

Last edited by Matjazz; 07-15-2008 at 02:07 PM.
07-15-2008, 02:24 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by Matjazz Quote
I think some people are confusing what Pentax needs to do with what they want Pentax to do
We use a saying that goes something like this: It's easy to swing in the nettles with somebody else's d**k. That being said I'm sure Pentax has given serious thought to their future cameras and lenses. More than all of us.


Yeah...but this thread is about a rumor of a ca.28mp FF Pentax with ISO from 100-6400ISO and shooting 3-5fps. The existence of this rumor has nothing to do with what we think Pentax should do or what we want Pentax to do.
The person starting this thread has an impeccable track record in the rumor department, and the rumors are collaborated by other sources. So for me, this person is credible until proven otherwise.....
07-15-2008, 02:40 PM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Sounds like the A900 (24MP) to me. A high MP full frame camera. Then theres the 1DS (21) and the upcoming D3X (24). Seems like a kinda crowded old market.

Now I have a 4GB dual core PC with a high speed graphics card and its already struggling with 15MP TIFF files when I have a couple of layers open in photoshop.

Plus my printer only prints up to 13X19 (which is still way too small to show any loss of detail) and furthermore any resolution advantage I would get from 28MP wouldnt show up without a tripod so would be largely academic.

So unless I am a pro its pretty pointless having 15+ MP (15 being enough for a double page magazine spread with a little cropping). But I would hazard a guess that most pros who do need more would veer away from a company that has no pro support.

So, your entire market consists of a tiny fraction of existing pentax enthusiasts with lots of expensive legacy lenses with $3000 to spend just to make a point. And Ben of course

Except that faced with a bill for $3000 vs sponsorship from Nikon and 3 free D3X's he'd be mad not to crack....
If I get to direct the commercial and shoot the catalogue I told you about...I'll buy you a Macbook... No problem with large files!

ben

07-15-2008, 02:58 PM   #200
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I leave to give my opinion:

All we like to see the Pentax with tip products, fighting side by side with Nikon and Canon. But this does not happen, because it nor obtains to mount one creaks of lenses in system APS, the more to mount a System Full Frame leaving of the zero.

In first place it needs urgent to improve its system of Auto Focus, Continuous Drive, at least 6 FPS, Live View, high ISO with quality, without no noise, Image stabilization, leaving at least in the same level of the competition or very better.

To have a complete system, she must have at least the following options of cameras and lenses to start:

1- Camera of entrance = K 1000D
2- Fans = K 300D
3- Semi-pro = K 30D
4- Professionals K 2D (APS)
5- Professionals K 1D (Full Frame)

Lenses = a complete system of lenses Full Frame, with prime lenses, lenses zoom, never not forgetting them
300mm 2,8,
400mm 2,8,
Zoom 100/400 F 2,8,
Zoom 250/600mm F4 and of
600mm F4.

If the Hoya wants to enter in the game, and to get a part of the market and to invoice much more, have that to change its philosophy of work and to open the hand and to spend in research and development of new products. If not my friends, the Pentax does not go to last much time, unhappyly for us.
07-15-2008, 04:59 PM   #201
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And given they are only a tiny division...

Which do you think they should do first????

Please dont say "all of it" because it wont happen.



QuoteOriginally posted by PedroErnestoGuerraAzevedo Quote
I leave to give my opinion:

All we like to see the Pentax with tip products, fighting side by side with Nikon and Canon. But this does not happen, because it nor obtains to mount one creaks of lenses in system APS, the more to mount a System Full Frame leaving of the zero.

In first place it needs urgent to improve its system of Auto Focus, Continuous Drive, at least 6 FPS, Live View, high ISO with quality, without no noise, Image stabilization, leaving at least in the same level of the competition or very better.

To have a complete system, she must have at least the following options of cameras and lenses to start:

1- Camera of entrance = K 1000D
2- Fans = K 300D
3- Semi-pro = K 30D
4- Professionals K 2D (APS)
5- Professionals K 1D (Full Frame)

Lenses = a complete system of lenses Full Frame, with prime lenses, lenses zoom, never not forgetting them
300mm 2,8,
400mm 2,8,
Zoom 100/400 F 2,8,
Zoom 250/600mm F4 and of
600mm F4.

If the Hoya wants to enter in the game, and to get a part of the market and to invoice much more, have that to change its philosophy of work and to open the hand and to spend in research and development of new products. If not my friends, the Pentax does not go to last much time, unhappyly for us.
07-15-2008, 05:34 PM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Which do you think they should do first????

Please dont say "all of it" because it wont happen.

In first place it needs urgent to improve its system of Auto Focus, Continuous Drive, at least 6 FPS, Live View, high ISO with quality, without no noise, Image stabilization, leaving at least in the same level of the competition or very better.

To have a complete system APS , she must have at least the following options of cameras and lenses to start:

1- Camera of entrance = K 1000D
2- Fans = K 300D
3- Semi-pro = K 30D
4- Professionals K 2D (APS)


And already to start to produce lenses full frame.
07-15-2008, 07:32 PM   #203
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Sounds like the A900 (24MP) to me. A high MP full frame camera. Then theres the 1DS (21) and the upcoming D3X (24). Seems like a kinda crowded old market.

Now I have a 4GB dual core PC with a high speed graphics card and its already struggling with 15MP TIFF files when I have a couple of layers open in photoshop.

Plus my printer only prints up to 13X19 (which is still way too small to show any loss of detail) and furthermore any resolution advantage I would get from 28MP wouldnt show up without a tripod so would be largely academic.

So unless I am a pro its pretty pointless having 15+ MP (15 being enough for a double page magazine spread with a little cropping). But I would hazard a guess that most pros who do need more would veer away from a company that has no pro support.

So, your entire market consists of a tiny fraction of existing pentax enthusiasts with lots of expensive legacy lenses with $3000 to spend just to make a point. And Ben of course

Except that faced with a bill for $3000 vs sponsorship from Nikon and 3 free D3X's he'd be mad not to crack....
I have no idea what choice Ben would make, but I do agree that a 20+MP FF camera is massive overkill for the vast majority of photographers, even for many who are pros or serious amateurs. Because technological advances come so fast, I think that many have forgotten what their objective in photography really is. Is it to produce photos with the absolute highest IQ possible, or is it to produce compelling images that elicit a strong emotional response in the viewer? If it is the latter, then the sort of high end cameras that are being discussed here are completely unnecessary. Lower resolution, APS-C cameras can now produce IQ that rivals or beats the best 35mm film and can even give MF film a run for its money. And just a few short years ago, MF film was pretty much the standard for great IQ. I understand that there are individuals who have special needs for ultra-high resolution cameras, but somehow, I don't think that Pentax can profitably cater to that crowd.

Personally, I would not be eager to go FF, even if Pentax produces such a camera at a "reasonable" price. Give me a 15MP K30D with an even better sensor than what is in the K20D, and I will be happy to fire away with a selection of compact DA and FA lenses. To me size matters--the smaller the better.

07-16-2008, 01:11 AM   #204
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FF in September.... not! I doubt they are even close. Ell they might do is announce then release might not be for another year or 2 with the Pentax track record. You've gotta have the patience of a saint.
07-16-2008, 02:29 AM   #205
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Hi,

Putting up my own contribution about the subject.

What do we know :

- Samsung announced in april of this year that they are developing a FF sensor link
- Pentax put on hold their 645 Digital Device developement,
- Hoya bought Pentax on June 2007.

Now general consideration about the SLR market.
- 2 brands are dominating the SLR market : Canon & Nikon,
- 2 brands are considered 2nd league players : Sony (ex-Minolta) and Pentax,
- The rest is more for the amateur, who want something more that the average P&S, while keeping weight and size low (that's where Olympus is putting its brand)
- For the brands that have FF sensors (C&N), they are slowly pushing them in the lower entry of their body lineup. The same happens for the APS-C sensor class, the K200D have the same sensor as the K10D, the K100D had the same sensor as the *ist.

I've read in several places that due to the massive investment necessary to keep up with the pace of the SLR market, the number of brands present on the market will get smaller and smaller.
I do not agree at 100% with that statement. I think that SLR presence is strategic for the P&S market, and that's why, for example, Panasonic and Samsung entered the SLR market.

For the same reason, I think that those brands will want to produce a professional SLR, and "professional" is tagged full frame in the average user mind. This statement is regardless of the viability of such a model, of the availability of an adapted lens lineup.

Everybody here talked a lot about what Pentax/Hoya wants and if they have enough funds to do it, etc... But to me, the real question is what Samsung wants. IMO, the only reason why Samsung did not make the same thing with Pentax as Sony did with Minolta is that Japanese people would never accept such a famous brand as Pentax to be bought a Corean group.

So, will Pentax/Samsung produce a Full Frame body ?
- Yes, I'm nearly 100% sure of it.
Will Pentax/Samsung show it in september ?
- It may be a bit early.

My feeling is that, Samsung wants to be a major player in the photo market (that it entered recently) along with Canon and Sony. And for that they'll put enough money to be a respected player of the high end SLR market.

From some news I had from a french site, Samsung is already 3rd of the market in volume, while Pentax is 4 times smaller.
07-16-2008, 04:37 AM   #206
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Samsung FF is but a rumour.
and acording to the french site Sony is as big as Canon, so I doubt the chart is about DSLR market share.
07-16-2008, 05:35 AM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by ghelary Quote
french site, Samsung is already 3rd of the market in volume, while Pentax is 4 times smaller.
This is for the overall market dominated by P&S.

The last figure I saw for the worldwide DSLR market has put Canon and Nikon at the top, followed by Pentax (6% incl. Samsung 1%), Olympus (6%) and Sony (6%).

IDC figures of 2007 for worldwide DSLR market share suggests that these numbers are pretty much the same, except that Pentax (incl. Samsung) may have dropped to about 5%.

I also found this 2006 figures for the Japanese market:
Japan Digital SLR Market Share by Unit Sales
Vendor July'06 June'06
===============================
Canon 33.3% 51.6%
Nikon 27.4% 32.6%
Sony 21.6% 2.3% (Sony alpha DSLR-A100 released in July'06)
Pentax 14.0% 7.6%
Olympus 2.8% 4.8%
Matsushita 0.8% 0.1%

-June sales for Sony and Matsushita reflect advance orders.
Source : BCN Ranking
Amazing, isn't it?

And I found this for Japanese DSLR market share in October 2007:
Canon 48.1%
Nikon 38.8%
Olympus 5.2%
Pentax 4.4%
Sony 3.3%
Panasonic 0.2%
Source : BCN Ranking

Last edited by falconeye; 07-16-2008 at 06:06 AM.
07-16-2008, 06:35 AM   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
If I get to direct the commercial and shoot the catalogue I told you about...I'll buy you a Macbook... No problem with large files!

ben
What kind of Macbook you have? Mine is stragling with 10mp ones
07-16-2008, 07:09 AM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by robgo2 Quote
I have no idea what choice Ben would make, but I do agree that a 20+MP FF camera is massive overkill for the vast majority of photographers, even for many who are pros or serious amateurs. .


Firstly, I don't believe in overkill. Secondly, image quality from todays sensors aren't as great as people make it out to be. Thats why I'm still using film.
A prominent wildlife photographer, after having talked about the plusses of cropped sensor, said that 2,4mp is all you ever going to need. Thats right folks; 2,4mp. Let me cite from his book: "At 2.4mp I'm not giving up or scarificing anything. In the barest of terms, if I were sacrificing quality I would simply be out of business". He is now using the D3, which as you probably know, is full frame and 12mp. I'll bet than in five years time his camera has 20+mp.
07-16-2008, 09:04 AM   #210
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I was going to say...

QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
If I get to direct the commercial and shoot the catalogue I told you about...I'll buy you a Macbook... No problem with large files!

ben
dual 4 gig and it's struggling with a 15 meg tiff?

I don't care if it's got 20 layers...



Time to get a Mac.

Cheers,
Cameron
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