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07-09-2008, 03:54 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I am betting on a FF Pentax in September....Not a lot of money but I have this sixth sense about these sorts of things and my intuition says between 24-28 mega pixels. Under 3k and 100 to 6400 iso. Three to Five FPS...........

Ben
Do you mean announce one (like the 645D) or actually release one in September?

I'm happy to bet they wont release a FF camera in September. How much?

07-09-2008, 03:57 PM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Thus the quickest way into the FF arena is to release a camera exactly like the K20D, but FF. This will inherit the K20D weaknesses, the slow AF and frame rate. But on the other hand it will inherit the K20D strengths as well..

...but a 28mp camera is probably not the ideal tool for machine gunning images anyway. It is a camera bought for image quality. Landscape and studio use.
If Pentax wants to make a "fast" camera, they better update the K20D....
07-09-2008, 04:10 PM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
I am sorry but you missunderstood most of what I said.
Sorry. It was surely not intentional.

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Some of you may want desperately to see a FF from Pentax
Well, that wouldn't be me, as I stated. So if this paragraph is still addressed to me, then you have misunderstood as well.

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
And to say that K20D is a match for D300 in anything else than IQ it's not very true.
What about handling? Ergonomics? Innovative modes? Weather sealing?

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
IMO the only lenses that could match in quality a 25 Mp sensor are FA 31 and 43 Ltd. FA 77 it's not up to task in resolution and to think one will buy a 3k camera to use a 100 USD old lens it's ... not practical.
Please read Rubn Osuna and Efran Garca's article Do Sensors "Outresolve" Lenses? Using the terminology of those authors the FA77 is a "highly corrected" lens, having its peak performance at f/4 and f/5.6 (see the Photozone review). Thus is would take 60 million pixels on a 35mm sensor to reach the limit of its performance.

I don't think we need to worry about that for a bit.
07-09-2008, 04:11 PM   #49
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I think that Pentax needs a FF as soon as posible in order to be a serious contender in the marketplace even if they sell only a few and lose money on it. The availability of a FF means "we are 'Pro' also" and subsequently will boost the sales of other models if they can break loose some heavy advertising money. The two leading monikers are plastered all over the place and overwhelmingly influence the average consumer.

07-09-2008, 04:47 PM   #50
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[QUOTE=Roberts;287605]
QuoteOriginally posted by Fototim Quote

Is this the same Schnaider whose name is on lenses for samsung - Schneider Optics - Home ? If Yes, then Schneider is not dead.
Besides, they produce B+W filters, too.
Quote: "Schneider Optics is the U.S. subsidiary of the world-renowned German optical manufacturer, Schneider-Kreuznach."
Schneider Optics
Unternehmensprofil Jos. Schneider Optische Werke

I think, they are quite busy, but not big. And 35mm lenses haven't recently been at their core business. But since they do P&S and large format, it should be feasible to do for them.

P.S.
I enjoyed this page in particular ... Schneider Optics

Last edited by falconeye; 07-09-2008 at 04:59 PM.
07-09-2008, 05:06 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by rparmar Quote
Sorry. It was surely not intentional.



Well, that wouldn't be me, as I stated. So if this paragraph is still addressed to me, then you have misunderstood as well.

I was talking in general and in no way in a derogative matter. It's a legitimate aspiration for Pentax users to have a FF. It will happen and I think we discuss just the timing now.

What about handling? Ergonomics? Innovative modes? Weather sealing?

I am with you on all those but I could also point at least 4 more important things that D300 has over K20D and more concrete, measurable things (mettering, af system, fps, superb LCD. All those could be incorporated as a first phase of a Pentax renaissance. IMO the Pentax problem was basically "we have great ideas and know how but we don't have much funding so somethings got to disappear". Now with Hoya's money and Samsung as a partner I has to be engineers' time to really show what they can do.

Please read Rubn Osuna and Efran Garca's article Do Sensors "Outresolve" Lenses? Using the terminology of those authors the FA77 is a "highly corrected" lens, having its peak performance at f/4 and f/5.6 (see the Photozone review). Thus is would take 60 million pixels on a 35mm sensor to reach the limit of its performance.

I am aware of the article but I was pointing out tests like photozone's which point to some flaws even on APS-C especially in the corners. I just think FA 31 and 43 are "better technically". I also stand by my prediction of less and less "common lenses" and more and more quality stuff like *s and ltds.

I don't think we need to worry about that for a bit.
@Pl

QuoteQuote:
But the question is; how many Pentax D300 would Pentax sell? Not many, if you ask me. Most Pentax users will go for the K20D instead. Nikon has a very different user base and much larger user size than Pentax.

Pentax needs to have some distance between the models and that is best done with the sensors....
I remember the disapointment some (even on this forum) had at the launch of K20D. Many said ... well, only a sensor change ... too little ... IMO to diferentiate only by sensor it's the least economic mode. Let me adress this in couple of words:
- today the K20D price is about 1k (maybe a bit more). In late september/october will be like 900 USD or less and this is Pentax's top camera. If Pentax will make a D300 equivalent for 1400 USD for example I think it will sell MORE THAN K20Ds was in the first 6 months (same period of time and in units). In the mean time K20D will be relegate to the role of fighting D90 and 450D. And more sensors produced means less we pay for each. Also this camera will also share costs with the FF one without having to wait for a generation change.

Radu
07-09-2008, 06:19 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
7) Lenses. For me at least it's a pipe dream to think that old glass will cope with a 24 over Mp FF sensor.
There was an interesting post on photo.net about theoretical max resolution w/ the best lenses on the market. For APS-C, it's 15Mpix. For FF, it's 35Mpix (the FF sensor uses more of the lens surface). A 24-29mpix sensor will easily work w/ current FF glass and upstage all the current FF bodies on the market
07-09-2008, 07:52 PM   #53
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This forum does need liveliness

well if they have money to develop a full frame sensor, what about the af and the fps?

07-09-2008, 08:05 PM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I am betting on a FF Pentax in September....Not a lot of money but I have this sixth sense about these sorts of things and my intuition says between 24-28 mega pixels. Under 3k and 100 to 6400 iso. Three to Five FPS...........

Ben
The real question is of what year? Pentax announced on Sep 21, 2006 that they were going to bring the DA* 60-250 mm F4 ED [IF] to market in March of 2007. It still isn't here. The best projection is now the Summer of 2008.
07-09-2008, 10:19 PM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
...but a 28mp camera is probably not the ideal tool for machine gunning images anyway. It is a camera bought for image quality. Landscape and studio use.
If Pentax wants to make a "fast" camera, they better update the K20D....
You know, there is an interesting thing for Pentax to do actually.

- Make a K30 (K20 variant, as the K20 was a variant to the K10) with the FF sensor and same specs. ALSO

- Make a K20 Super with upgraded specs, but same sensor as current

- Price these under 2k.

- Make a K3 with both the upgrades for 3k.

- Launch FF 60-250, 55 and 30 lenses with new bodies and rebadge existing compatible DA and DA*s as D-FAs (40, 70, 200, 300) and 1 surprise lens (possibly a FF DA*zoom 'kit' lens for the K3)

All new bodies can reuse most of the existing accessories and build technology to facilitate quick market delivery and there is an instant lens selection available.

...and the crowd goes wild!
07-10-2008, 12:04 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I am betting on a FF Pentax in September....Not a lot of money but I have this sixth sense about these sorts of things and my intuition says between 24-28 mega pixels. Under 3k and 100 to 6400 iso. Three to Five FPS...........

Ben
I dont see how Pentax looks credible without a FF, the Samsung thing makes it all possible, (I understand what people are saying about current lenses). But i'm sitting here with a collection of FF lenses, an APS body and 2000 in the bank ready to hand over to Pentax to let me shoot wide angle landscapes, am I that unusual? Just dont let it be 3000. 4000 I just say no, 2000 I say yes, 3000 oh god.......
07-10-2008, 12:15 AM   #57
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Lame as it may sound, but i will quote myself on this

"I think Nikon is aiming strongly for the pro journalism/sport market. I see the D700 more as the second camera for the pro and less as the affordable FF for the enthusiast. The D700 is the performace of the D3 in a smaller body, without the features of a true pro body (WiFi, vertical grip, two card slots, etc.) It's obvious that with the D300, D700, D3 and the upcoming D3X, Nikon is kicking Canon's a** in the high-end market.

But that is only the peak of the iceberg. In the low- and mid-end range, Canon is by far better. The 40D, 450D, 1000D are selling better than the D80,D60,D40x. They are also better cameras. You can still find the 400D and 350D brand new. The 5D is selling like crazy at 1900$, at least here. Add to that the USM primes that Nikon is missing. Canon is the king of this segment, no doubt about it.

I can't think of any Nikon worth buying under 1700$. And between the D300 and the 5D it would really be a close call, the 5D probably winning it for me. If you don't need speed at a very high level, i see no reason to choose Nikon right now.

At this point, i think "the camera to beat" is the 40D. And the K20D is doing that in terms of image quality, resolution and (subjectively) ergonomics. If it would have faster AF and 6 fps, there would be no doubt about it. And something like the current 5D for 1800-1900$ would also be a hit. With the same faster AF and 5fps it would be everything i would need. And let's not forget about the Shake Reduction. I think it would sell much better than the 645D or a D3-like K1D.

So, a K30D and a 5D-like K1D is what i would do. I think Pentax always meant great quality at a very good price. That's why i chose the K100D when i chose it. The K20D and K200D are just that, the Limited lenses are huge bang for the buck, old lenses are great. I hope Pentax will stick to that."

What i see is a great opening in the market. Between the C 40D and the N D700 there are only two cameras: D300 and 5D. If Pentax can match or beat the 40D on all aspects (so better AF and fps in the K20D) , and a 5fps 5D-like 2k$ Pentax would beat the D300 and 5D into the ground, so they would have an amazing target audience. The next higher priced camera would be the D700, offering little for the 1k+.

Honestly, how many of you would buy a 645D or a 4k$ K1D similar to the D3? And how many of you would buy a 6fps K20D with improved AF or/and a 1800$ 5fps 14Mpix FF?
07-10-2008, 01:05 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pl Jensen Quote
This is a myth. The "problem" with FF lenses is edge definition due to the angle light is hitting the sensors. Pentax/Samsung patents (used in the 14,6mp sensor) reduce this problem with 50%.
Whats more, FF sets in fact less demand on the lenses than smaller sensor. This is due to the fact that for certain output size, an APS sized image need to be magnified 50% more than the same image from an FF sensor. Hence, lens imperfection gets equally magnified.
Pl is right - by a factor of 2.25!

I am very glad to see your here, Pl

Cheers,
07-10-2008, 01:10 AM   #59
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Schneider has the factory in S.Korea.
07-10-2008, 02:48 AM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
Do you mean announce one (like the 645D) or actually release one in September?

I'm happy to bet they wont release a FF camera in September. How much?
A Pair of Latex Panties and a Jar of Vaseline...

Ben
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