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07-10-2008, 03:23 PM   #91
RaduA
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenyee Quote
AFAIK, Ben's NDA is still in effect...they usually last a few years or until a product is announced, so all he can do is hint.
As for the rest, yep, I'd agree...ramming a FF sensor in the K10D/K20D's body would be dumb. I suspect they didn't do that and I also suspect Samsung has their own SLR engineers by now; Pentax has already said they're working on it (I suspect for a year or maybe 1.5 yrs already since I'm sure Samsung told them about the upcoming FF sensor at least 6 months before they announced it); these are guesses of timelines from being in the engineering (hardware/chipdesign) industry. The bottom line is we're all guessing except maybe Ben. We'll find out in Sept though. Personally, I'd be happy w/ a K20Ds with better predictive AF, an IR assist lamp, and no weird banding or hotpixels, but a FF would give me something to save for....I'm tired of landscape photos w/ trees that are 3 pixels tall...6pixels would be nicer
Kenyee,

I could be wrong but I recall Ben openely saying (during some 'WB person' Nostradamus like "predictions") that he has no idea about those claims that a FF camera exists. I know about NDAs and Ben adressed that to the point in saying he could never give specific details.

Anyway unfortunatelly for some the next new Pentax camera ain't a FF one.

Radu

07-10-2008, 03:52 PM   #92
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Personally, I would like a FF camera, to rival the D700/5D Mk2, but in reality I would prefer Pentax to concentrate on a new shutter and fps (6 would be nice :-) ) I did try a C*n*n 40D, and could not believe the shutter on it, so much smoother and faster (from a pressing the button pov) than my K10D, not that I would go to the dark side.

However, if Samsung are rumoured to be bringing out a FF camera, then it makes sense for Pentax to bring one out as well. It will certainly give a workout for my lens collection.....

Finally, I can see Pentax producing a range of FF lenses, (although my 50-135 looks like it will work in FF, I will keep you posted with my MZ-5n). If Nikon and Canon can produce two sets of lenses, depending on the sensor, why not Pentax? (albeit a reduced range.)

In the meantime, I will continue to take photos with my K10D and DS, having fun whilst I do. :-)
07-10-2008, 04:01 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Anyway unfortunatelly for some the next new Pentax camera ain't a FF one
Yep. I wouldn't be surprised if it were a low-low end one.
Maybe they'll add higher speed sync like you can do w/ Nikon's D40?
07-10-2008, 07:31 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
A Pair of Latex Panties and a Jar of Vaseline...

Ben
Thats not fair, you get your latex panties at bulk discount.....

07-10-2008, 07:33 PM   #95
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I agree

With every single word you said.

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
It's all about money but all the money in the world cannot turn nothing into anything over night. So let'd speculate some more:

1) Sony needs like an year from the "announcement moment" - 30 january to deliver a FF sensor. And Sony makes sensors for ages, Samsung (big ones) for a few months. So, they can "announce" a FF camera at Photokina no problem but deliver?! Me thinks not ;
2) What really makes sense and is doable? IMO prepare for a FF camera by making another one with what the FF will share as much as possible. Sort of K10 - K20D. So, if they think the K20Ds body is too small this is the first step they'll make. If they'll think an Alu or AlMg body is "more professional" this is the second step. If they'll change the body in size then a >= 3" gorgeous LCD like the competition is very possible;
3) Analyse what are the weakest links and strongest points in what Pentax-Samsung have today. IMO weakeast in the sense of a professional camera are: mettering system, AF system, shutter system. Strongest would be the sensor (more so in a second iteration with some tweaks). So, if the might of Samsung can produce what Pentax-Samsung engineers can think of then what do we have?
A new camera with APS-C sensor which tests a lot of new systems for the "big brother" next year.
4) PRIME processor - if this is maintained "as such" for a sensor of over 24 Mp then the fps could be arguable guessed @ 1-2 fps. No good! Then a PRIME 2 processor is needed and if that one could make 5 fps @ 24 Mp guess how many can it do @ 14,6 Mp?
5) Very few outside Pentax-Samsung know for sure what systems were in work when K20D was about to be launched. Maybe they had some improvements almost ready and decided to bypass them because of the "weakest link theory". That meaning why putting a very powerfull new processing system when the shutter mechanism anyway can do only 3 fps. So on and so forth ...
6) My gut feeling is this: at Photokina we will see at least 2 cameras: one APS-C D300 killer with whatever is needed from the above and with the dual role of taking the heat to the big boys and restore the "professional estime" for Pentax users or people atracted to Pentax but who percieve it as "not professional". The other will be a mock up FF under glass with many of the systems common with the first and different sensor. And a third one VERY possible (see bellow) with an ETA nov-december X-mass shopping time.
7) Lenses. For me at least it's a pipe dream to think that old glass will cope with a 24 over Mp FF sensor. Not even the mighty Fa 31 Ltd may not be up to the task and any doubtfull ones can look a bit at the many L glass on the 21 Mp Canon sensor. The old FA Ltd lines of production I think are dissmantled and IMO the whole Hoya plan it's that: maintain Pentax as a manufacturer and make it grow only to expand the very lucrative lens business. Think for a second, Hoya already has Tokina but this is sort of a "second tier" in the C and N world. If they can make and sell as many * and Ltd glass they will have a vaste and closed market only for themselfs and this is the game. And unfortunatelly this is why I also think we will see an even lower DSLR than K200D to make the access to Pentax world easier for first time buyers.
And most of all I think that Hoya will make the Pentax FF system DFA* and DFA Limiteds only. That means professional glass only and for an upper price category than others but (I hope) with splendid results. And it concurs with the "niche aproach" Ned often said it's the Pentax future. So they could "subsidise" a bit the bodies to earn more from the lenses. Sort of a printer mfgr which sells printers at a lower cost only to earn more from the overpriced ink.
Hoya wants to make a bigger market share for Pentax and exploit our legendary LBA

Conclusion: this year is about APS-C (bodies and lenses), next will be about FF.

My 2 eurocents (VAT included),
Radu
07-10-2008, 08:07 PM   #96
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Bet the Samsung one is better...

QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Jodokast96,

I can't recall exactly when the rumour started but it became official in late january:Sony announces development of 35mm CMOS sensor: Digital Photography Review

Radu
The Koreans are really on a roll these days - they are turning out amazing products in every category, from cars to TV's to monitors to cellphones - they're not out to compete with the Japanese companies, they want to anihilate them.

Cheers,
Cameron
07-10-2008, 09:27 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by benjikan Quote
I am betting on a FF Pentax in September....Not a lot of money but I have this sixth sense about these sorts of things and my intuition says between 24-28 mega pixels. Under 3k € and 100 to 6400 iso. Three to Five FPS...........

Ben
I will take your bet any time. No way Pentax will have a full frame ready in less than a year.
07-11-2008, 03:32 AM   #98
RaduA
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QuoteOriginally posted by *isteve Quote
With every single word you said.
Thank you, Steve!

I am kind of "not involved in FF" since I want to build for the moment an APS-C system and latter on if I'll have enough money to jump to MF. But I am interested a lot in seing Pentax becoming a professional entity that thinks in economical terms before comiting any of my money to them. And they really need to update a lot of technology and luckily for us I "kind of know" they'll do just that.

Radu

07-11-2008, 03:40 AM   #99
RaduA
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cambo Quote
The Koreans are really on a roll these days - they are turning out amazing products in every category, from cars to TV's to monitors to cellphones - they're not out to compete with the Japanese companies, they want to anihilate them.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cameron,

No argument here since I know Samsung it's already on par with Sony in terms of turnover and many times more profitable. But one cannot ignore that Sony has many years of experience in both large sensors manufacturing and camera design plus the old Konica Minolta in the house. At the moment they arguably have the largest entry to mid level range of DSLRs among all manufactureres.
And that kind of expertise it's hard to overcome no matter how much money you may have. I only said that Samsung will not "dare" to make their first DSLR on their own to be their flagship and risk compromising their reputation from the start.
I see them as a major partner of Pentax and for sure very involved in all the electronics systems but the show is still with Pentax as a director.

Radu
07-11-2008, 03:40 AM   #100
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Show a mock-up like they did the 645D in various versions they might, but I cannot believe more than that. Besides, cannot afford it anyway, and APS-C does fine for me right now...

But I'm sure the next Photokina will be very interesting. I regret I won't be able to go this time...

Wim
07-11-2008, 04:10 AM   #101
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Maybe we could also flip everything upside down: What if K20 sensor is only a crop of an already developed full frame sensor? Then we have a tested body [from k10 would be a 3rd generation], tested sensor [hot pixels solved via firmware updates, great ISO, amazing sharpness], many lenses almost ready [FA, many DA needs only to be rebadged].

From this p.o.v. the base elements are already field testing form late 2007
07-11-2008, 04:27 AM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by zntgrg Quote
Maybe we could also flip everything upside down: What if K20 sensor is only a crop of an already developed full frame sensor? Then we have a tested body [from k10 would be a 3rd generation], tested sensor [hot pixels solved via firmware updates, great ISO, amazing sharpness], many lenses almost ready [FA, many DA needs only to be rebadged].

From this p.o.v. the base elements are already field testing form late 2007
Don't think the K10D/K20D body has enough room in it to fit a 135format sensor. Perhaps if the SR module were left out, and even then... Also the viewfinder/pentaprism needs to be enlarged to accommodate the larger image, which won't be possible in the K10D/K20D body design IMHO...

Wim
07-11-2008, 04:35 AM   #103
RaduA
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QuoteOriginally posted by zntgrg Quote
Maybe we could also flip everything upside down: What if K20 sensor is only a crop of an already developed full frame sensor? Then we have a tested body it very well may be that electronics + new sensor will not fit the old body + it's hard to put a 3" "professional" LCD on it [from k10 would be a 3rd generation], tested sensor [hot pixels solved via firmware updates, great ISO great for APS-C not great at all for FF, amazing sharpness for that one will need a really AMAZING lens maybe more times more expensive than the camera itself], many lenses almost ready [FA, many DA needs only to be rebadged 3xFA (up to 77mm, 2xDFA (up to 100mm), no zooms, DA* 200 and 300 not optimised/certified for FF].

From this p.o.v. the base elements are already field testing form late 2007
Not so fast I am affraid, my friend!

The 14,6 Mp sensor as the first Samsung attempt was quite a succes I think. But if you want to extrapolate this one to a larger size and this is it I think they'll be much behind the competition. In short such a sensor would have:

- something like 34 Mp;
- same noise characteristics (good up to ISO 1600, so-so at 3200);
- same DR.

And also it will put a high pressure on most of current lenses.
Samsung must use the experience of this first sensor and improve at least in noise and DR.

Radu
07-11-2008, 04:44 AM   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
Not so fast I am affraid, my friend!

The 14,6 Mp sensor as the first Samsung attempt was quite a succes I think. But if you want to extrapolate this one to a larger size and this is it I think they'll be much behind the competition. In short such a sensor would have:

- something like 34 Mp;
- same noise characteristics (good up to ISO 1600, so-so at 3200);
- same DR.

And also it will put a high pressure on most of current lenses.
Samsung must use the experience of this first sensor and improve at least in noise and DR.

Radu


All things equal, it will have 50% less noise than 14,6mp sensor and will be the market leader in resolution for a 35mm DSLR. In fact, it should be truly amazing.
If it has 28mp, it has probably has even better noise performance.
Besides, this obviously isn't a camera for high speed shooting at low light level, thats something for the likes of the D3/D700. Usable 6400ISO makes it good enough for most of us anyway. And remember; with such a high resolution file, you can do heavy noise reduction and still be left with lots of details...
The FF cameras are now in the reach of the amateurs. When a Camera like the D3, that cost a fortune and don't give better image quality than a sub $1000 DSLR at normal ISO values, can sell 12 000 units a month, affordable, high-resolution (20+mp) will be the next big thing among ther advanced amateurs and professionals alike.
07-11-2008, 04:50 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by Ishpuini Quote
Don't think the K10D/K20D body has enough room in it to fit a 135format sensor. Perhaps if the SR module were left out, and even then... Also the viewfinder/pentaprism needs to be enlarged to accommodate the larger image, which won't be possible in the K10D/K20D body design IMHO...

Wim

It's really of no importance. The camera controlling electronic could be the same as use in the K20D. Same for the AF module. Alternatively a new AF module which will be destilled into lower end model in due course. An FF pentaprism could Pentax take from their shelves; eg the MZ-S or the MZ-1 finder. Shutter units can be bought off the shelves. In the past, Pentax and Nikon have used the same shutters. I would not be surprise if a FF Pentax use the same shutter as the Nikon D700. This isn't rocket science.
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