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05-27-2016, 04:48 PM   #31
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Sigma lenses are clearly not a beneficial part of the K-mount ecosystem. Tamron lenses, for instance, have a symbiotic relationship with the Pentax system.

Sigma lenses have a parasitic relationship with the K-mount system, as a leech, to the point that mounting a Sigma lens actually damages a K-1.

05-27-2016, 04:57 PM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Sigma lenses are clearly not a beneficial part of the K-mount ecosystem.
People buy Nikon's, Canon's, Sony's - and yes, even Pentaxes - largely on the basis of the availability of lenses for the platform. The host benefits from the 'parasite' too.

Also in some markets (eg Australia), for many years (even today) some Pentax bodies have been distributed with Sigma lenses as the kit lens. So the Pentax/Sigma relationship may be more complicated than you believe. Particularly in the real-world.
05-27-2016, 05:48 PM - 1 Like   #33
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People have had advantage taken of them by Sigma. They steal from Pentax and Sony and Canon and Nikon and sell for less money, and the buyer thinks there's value. But there isn't. Not in the long run.

Did Pentax box the Sigma lenses or did CRK make up an affinity package that just happened to have a Sigma lens in it and call it a kit?

The longer this discussion goes on the more I realize Sigma owners keep trying to work this around so Pentax is accountable for the results of their own bad choices. I actually get it. Pentax cameras are cheap. Sigma lenses are cheap. OK - But this is the cost.
05-27-2016, 07:07 PM   #34
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In a practical way, Pentax shares accountability.

It's like a car-crash now, where drivers argue who was wrong or right based on their understanding of road rules and driver responsibilities on a roundabout or at an intersection. A driver can follow the rules and not be at fault, but get into a crash nonetheless. Better if both parties drove carefully and avoided obvious risks, recognising each could damage the other.

05-27-2016, 07:14 PM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
In a practical way, Pentax shares accountability.

It's like a car-crash now, where drivers argue who was wrong or right based on their understanding of road rules and driver responsibilities on a roundabout or at an intersection. A driver can follow the rules and not be at fault, but get into a crash nonetheless. Better if both parties drove carefully and avoided obvious risks, recognising each could damage the other.
How does Pentax have any responsibility in this situation? They're free to size the space around the mount of their camera bodies as they see fit. If it breaks other manufacturer's lens support then that is tough cookies for them. Pentax has NO obligation to help any other company out... they're out to sell their own lenses, not help another company sell theirs.
05-27-2016, 07:20 PM - 1 Like   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Pentax has NO obligation to help any other company out
It's not about company-to-company battles. Pentax has users. They have a stake in this issue too.
05-27-2016, 07:24 PM   #37
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It's a vexed issue ... in an ecosystem, partners can also be competitors.

FWIW, Sigma change their spacer but the camera gets sent to Ricoh for repair, if we're apportioning blame. Who pays for what bit hasn't been revealed. ☺
05-27-2016, 07:37 PM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
It's not about company-to-company battles. Pentax has users. They have a stake in this issue too.
But Pentax didn't tell Sigma how to shape their lenses. Nor is Pentax relying on Sigma for lens support. One (typically) buys a single camera body and multiple lenses. So I'm confident Pentax wants those lens purchases to be Pentax branded and not Sigma. They don't really make much if they're just selling camera bodies. Otherwise, they might as well sell Canon EF mount bodies and make a ton more selling camera bodies alone than they are here in K mount.

05-27-2016, 07:45 PM   #39
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I've always thought that when Sigma says it's K-mount compatible it won't have any problems. If all previous Pentax lenses do not have a problem when mounted to the k-1, then probably Sigma didn't follow the standard measurements when they made these lenses. I'm not blaming either company. I just hope the fix for those who have these lenses will be quick.
05-27-2016, 08:02 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
@biz-engineer We do not know that Pentax did not take the Sigma design into account. A shim plate on some examples of the lenses touches the body. Some users have posted photos showing that their example of one of the enumerated lenses has a plate that does not touch the body. Others show the same plate does touch the body. One user described the plate as elliptical.
Sigma has been a little loose with dimensional spec QC, it would appear.

It may well be that both Pentax and Sigma designed with the intent of being compatible, but Sigma dropped the ball on the manufacturing end of things. Sigma offers to make good for the sloppiness and Ricoh/Pentax shrugs and says, "whatever". Everything is good...


Steve

(...wondering if legacy Vivitar, Tamron and Russian "cat" mirror lenses will clear probably...will Samyang 500/8 fit...knows most Asahi/Pentax K-mount bellows won't...)
05-27-2016, 09:53 PM   #41
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This conversation into non-meaning has been great. Glad I don't have any of the affected lenses.
05-28-2016, 12:41 AM   #42
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Non-meaning for me as well...
Sigma 20mm, 4,5mm and 8-16mm safe with K-1.
05-28-2016, 04:13 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Sigma dropped the ball on the manufacturing end of things.
Not just Sigma. When I have the time, I may do some photos of one of my Sigma lenses that are on the 'problem list' (but which actually pose no problem on my K-1 - phew!) with different generations of my Pentaxes, from MX to Ricoh XR2S to K-x/K-5/K-3/K-1, to illustrate how Pentax has progressively 'moved the goalposts' in terms of the shrinking area above the K mount ring up to the K-1.
05-28-2016, 06:05 AM - 1 Like   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Sigma lenses are clearly not a beneficial part of the K-mount ecosystem. Tamron lenses, for instance, have a symbiotic relationship with the Pentax system.

Sigma lenses have a parasitic relationship with the K-mount system, as a leech,
This is your opinion, not a fact. And you are certainly entitled to it, but now that I know your mindset, I understand where your comments are coming from.

I have the opposite opinion. I see Sigma as a valuable part of the K-mount ecosystem, and I feel that without the additional lens choices that Sigma brings, a Pentax DSLR would not be nearly as compelling. While there is some overlap between Pentax and Sigma lens choices, both companies also offer some very unique lenses.

For example, where is the Pentax equivalent of the Sigma 8-16mm? And where is Pentax's silent-focusing 85mm/1.4 portrait lens? And where are the 30/35mm f/1.4 lenses from Pentax? And of course there's the big 150-500mm and 50-500mm Sigma twins. Where is Pentax's affordable 500mm zoom lens? It's only very recently that they came out with the 150-450mm. And while that's a very good lens, it has a more narrow focal range and is priced far outside the budget of most hobbyists, which is where the bulk of Pentax customers come from. And for those who do have a big budget, Sigma offered the excellent 500mm/4.5 long before the Pentax 560mm/5.6 was released, and the Sigma may still be the better choice.

And even when there is direct overlap, the Sigma may still be a better choice. For example, you have the Pentax 50-135mm f/2.8 vs the Sigma 50-150mm f/2.8. Both lenses are fantastic optically, but the Sigma has more reach, focuses quicker, and is not plagued with the problematic SDM focus motor.

And to give Pentax their due, they also offer some unique and wonderful lenses, such as the Limited line. And the sweet 10-17mm fisheye is another unique offering. The way I see it, the Pentax lenses appeal to a different user than many of the Sigma lenses, so together there is something to suit almost every taste. So that's why I find the hatred of Sigma hard to understand.

Last edited by Edgar_in_Indy; 05-28-2016 at 08:07 AM.
05-28-2016, 07:24 AM   #45
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I'm not sure you understand my opinion at all, but I understand your perspective, as I have from the beginning. It isn't the Pentax 'ecosystem' that matters. Sigma lenses are part of your ecosystem. That's what matters.

Third-party complimentary product makers exist in most industry categories, filling niches and filling out systems, or offering consumers choices. That's fine, and I've said I understand the motivation of Sigma and Sigma buyers.

The difference is whether the third-party maker is a collaborator or an opportunist. Sigma is an opportunist. They reverse-engineer rather than licensing and collaborating, which is also fine. But - and here's the point of the distinction - having made the choice to buy a Sigma lens, you ought not to be aggrieved when a poorly machined spacer that Pentax actually did allow for scratches your camera.

The fact is, I don't have a dog in this hunt. I think it's interesting that the only thing Pentax critics can get lathered up about so far is a tiny scratch made by a non-compliant third-party lens.
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