Originally posted by monochrome The fact is, I don't have a dog in this hunt.
Really? You are using some strong language, considering you "
don't have a dog in this hunt".
Originally posted by monochrome They steal from Pentax and Sony and Canon and Nikon and sell for less money, and the buyer thinks there's value.
They "
steal"?
Really? Most of the K-mount specification has been in the public domain for a long time now and on top of that reverse engineering is apparently actually legal, according to US law. Also, you haven't answered Edgar's question whether licensing would be available at all to Sigma. But why not accuse someone of "stealing" in the absence of any facts?
BTW, you are also insulting all Sigma customers by stating that the "
buyer thinks there's value. But there isn't. ". So Sigma customers are easily fooled according to your view, are they? My Sigma lenses -- I own a lot of Pentax lenses too, including all FA Ltds, and FA* lenses -- have been of great value to me, so your statement is at best a very crude over-generalisation.
Originally posted by monochrome I said it is wrong to expect Pentax to violate its own published specifications to accommodate a poorly crafted third-party legacy (and apparently contemporary) list of lenses' oversized spacer.
- "Pentax to violate its own published specifications... ": Why would Pentax need to "violate" its specification, if they just left a bit more clearance? Are you serious? A bit more clearance would also be welcome to allow for a bit of imprecision during lens mounting that may occur in the heat of the moment when one is changing lenses during a wedding, or similarly fast-paced event.
- "poorly crafted": What is your inside information that allows you to make such an assertion? With all previous Pentax DSLR there was no need to obey very specific mount constraints. Sigma produces its lenses for many mounts and that's actually an advantage for Pentaxians because Sigma passes on the economy of mass production to its customers. Before the K-1 arrived, it was a 100% OK for Sigma to offer their lenses with their respective dimensions, i.e., not make special concessions to a mount that offers so few sales that many third-party lens manufacturers had withdrawn their support a long time ago. It made economical sense for Sigma to not adapt the lenses to K-mount specifically and not achieve tight tolerances for a part where it did not matter whether it was 0.5mm larger or not. With your use of "sloppy" you unwillingly or not imply that Sigma is not a responsible manufacturer. However, it is clear that a company cannot produce lenses as optically advanced as the Sigma "Art" lenses are, unless it knows how to achieve tight tolerances where it matters.
Originally posted by monochrome People have had advantage taken of them by Sigma.
Pardon?
How can you possibly defend such a statement?
You do realise that your statement follows a very forthcoming response by Sigma offering to fix all lenses and even cameras?
Originally posted by monochrome ...perhaps the host organism is gradually evolving to protect itself.
Are you suggesting that Ricoh deliberately made the clearance unnecessarily small in order to hurt Sigma?
That wouldn't be very nice of Ricoh, would it?
Surely, Ricoh can design their cameras any which way they like, but from a customer's perspective this not about "who is in the right", but about whether incompatibilities can be justified or not. I don't think anyone would have minded if the K-1 had been 2mm taller (in case there is really no other way to avoid the tight overhang). But a lot of Sigma customers would have appreciated it. So if it had been my decision, I would have avoided the scratching problem. Of course there will always be brand apologists who will defend Ricoh about adhering to the specification, but now we have a situation where
- some people say they won't get a K-1 if they can't continue to use their Sigma glass with it,
- Sigma is looking good by stepping up and offering a comprehensive fix,
- Ricoh is looking like they need to make petty moves in order to protect themselves and/or don't care about the subset of their customers who found good reasons to choose Sigma in the past.
Are you also suggesting that there was not real technological need to change the flash protocol on the K-1?
That Ricoh just did some gratuitous changes in order to hurt Metz and other third-party flash manufacturers?
You might be excused to think that, because to the best of my knowledge nothing has been added to P-TTL that would justify developing a changed flash protocol. It seems, it would have been more economical and, first and foremost, customer-friendly, to not change the flash protocol.
Are you furthermore suggesting that the freezing that occurs with some Sigma lenses on the K-1 is also a deliberate attempt and a sign that the "
host organism is gradually evolving to protect itself"?
Again, that wouldn't be very customer-friendly of Ricoh, and seems unlikely given the various other kinds of freezes that have been reported in conjunction with the K-1. Seems just like Ricoh has to do a bit more work in terms of the firmware robustness and that posters claiming that "this is what people had coming for them when buying third-party lenses" are pointing the finger in the wrong direction.
Originally posted by monochrome Sigma lenses are clearly not a beneficial part of the K-mount ecosystem. Tamron lenses, for instance, have a symbiotic relationship with the Pentax system.
You seem to take -- for whatever reason -- a company perspective. Undeniably, for customers Sigma has been of value, otherwise Sigma wouldn't be one of the largest third-party lens manufacturers. At a time when Pentax introduced mostly small and slow lenses many of them optically compromised and (since MAP) not very attractively priced, Sigma provided a very welcome alternative to Pentaxians with their fast and FF-future-proof lenses. Not to mention the holes they have been filling in the Pentax line-up.
Tamron, on the other hand, has a deal with Pentax that allows Pentax to sell a re-badged Tamron lens to customers at higher prices than what they would have paid if they could purchase the lens as a third-party product from Tamron. How is that better for the customer?
I understand that companies must be profitable and need to take measures accordingly but the Pentax / Sigma relationship is clearly not one where Sigma is threatening Pentax's existence. On the contrary, one could say that in combination with other third-party offerings, they have helped the K-mount to stay afloat in difficult times.
I recommended Pentax many a times to fellow photographers but I would not have done it during the time when the two standard zooms in the Pentax line-up -- the 16-50/2.8 and the 50-135/2.8 -- were so likely to suffer from SDM failures that one could not recommend them with a good conscience to a friend. Luckily, third-party alternatives still made Pentax cameras a good choice during these times.