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07-11-2016, 09:19 AM   #391
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QuoteQuote:
I'm sorry Norm, but I disagree with you on the niche aspect. I'm not saying that everyone use flash, and even those that use it don't do it on each shot. But it's certainly more than 1%...
Well OK then.

A brief review of "Post your Photos"

Name of post, Number of flash photos, number of no flash photos.

Star trails at Glacier Point -------------------------- 0,1
Out of the Heat, In to the High Country ----------0,8
the girl in the graveyard------------------------------ 0,1
Session with Vika. My second experience with flash 4,0
Milkweed Leaf Beetle --------------------------------1,0
2 Sunsets and 2 Blue Hour shots -----------------0,4
A Hot Day's Night -------------------------------------2,0
'Your Stairway Lies On The Whispering Wind" 0,1
Rooms Igloomis ---------------------------------------0,1
Night-caps -----------------------------------------------0,3
Watertown revisited------------------------------------0,7
Engagement Shoot-------------------------------------5,0
An Unsettling Reflection-------------------------------0,5
snake eyes------------------------------------------------0-2
Just like a Painting.--------------------------------------0,1
The Milky Way over Owl's Head---------------------0,1
Ruins In Nature-------------------------------------------0,1
The Rose Bushes are springing to life-.------------0,1
My Beacon of Hope.-------------------------------------0,1
Landscape Through A Window------------------------0,1

38 non-flash images
12 images

Of the 4 flash threads, 1 or 2 could have been taken with built in flash, which is a capability the K-70 has.

All the flash images taken with high end bodies, K-3s one K-5 IIs image, one K-1 image

Four of 20 posts using flash, all with high end bodies.
No evidence at all of people using entry level bodies even with the built in flash, forget about RC flash units etc.
The suggestion would be that the K-70 has more flash capabilities than it needs with just the built in flash, and that the people who use flash at all, are buying higher end bodies.

QuoteQuote:
The flash subsection of PF actually has 30K posts in it, making it one of the most active technicaly oriented subsection.
Good point.

But just for comparison.
SLR lens discussion 423K
Post your photos 552k
Popular is a comparative term.

QuoteQuote:
And this is exactly the problem, even if someone is willing to pay more to have the functionality, satisfying options simply doesn't exist... This is exaclty what I meant above by saying that people needing the functionality would be happy to pay for a set of decent RF P-TTL trigger if the body doesn't provide the functionality, but Pentax just doesn't make one, and buying a more advanced body doesn't change this reality..
There's a difference between "Pentax doesn't make one" and the follow up "Pentax should make one", with the follow up suggestion " maybe if you need one and Pentax doesn't make one you should buy from a company that makes what you need." If we start getting into what companies "should do" Nikon and Canon should have in body shake reduction and Pixel shift. "You pays your money and you takes your pick."

A 20 post sample could be off by a large margin, but ti's still better than a guess in my book.


Last edited by normhead; 07-11-2016 at 09:59 AM.
07-11-2016, 09:49 AM - 3 Likes   #392
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The logical solution is to offer a pocket-small optical-controller strobe for the hotshoe.
07-11-2016, 09:55 AM   #393
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QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
I'm a bit late in the discussion, but you're perfectly right. I'm using the wireless control quite often with my actual camera. But for me, the real problem isn't that Pentax removed this feature in the K-70 (and KS-2, K-3ii, K1...). It's that no satisfying alternatives are proposed to replace it. It would not be a big problem if, let say, Pentax would have lauched at the same time a cheap flash controller, or, even better, a P-TTL RF flash trigger. People would not have complained, particularly if the second option was available! But now, people who are used to work with off camera flash are left in the dark (pun intended). You can't ask people to spend an additional 400$ on a 360 flash just to be used as a flash controller and replace a feature they had for years supported natively in body !
I partly agree with you. Jan 2015, I was of the belief that OnBoard Flash was a holdover feature for amateurs, kind of like the "auto" setting that sometimes accompanies "Av", "Tv", "M", and "P" settings. The OBF is so pin-point and weak, I didn't know that any knowledgeable user used one; I thought its main users were those who take flash pictures at the beginning of a NASCAR race or other event, putting no useful light on their subject but letting the rest of us know that something important was happening. Then came the K-3ii, and all the complaining about it's lack of an OBF; the complaints educated me in how others use the flash {as I've commented before, I believe the OBF on my K-30 works, but I don't remember having ever used it} I have an AF200, but it's somewhat bulky, so I'm more likely to use the "auto" Vivitar flash that dates back to my use of the Super Program in the 1980's. I am willing to believe that Pentax designers approached the K-3ii the same as I did; it is too bad they didn't learn as I did from the reaction to the K-3ii. My reaction remains the same as it was eighteen months ago - I don't see a compelling reason to put an OBF on any DSLR, but since there are users who want that, perhaps Pentax needs to develop a small swiveling {more like my Vivitar flash than like anything in their current product like} master-slave capable flash.

An RF-capable system would be even better, but then they'd have to figure out some inexpensive converter for their current line or face even more complains from those whose flashes have become obsolete.


07-11-2016, 09:57 AM - 1 Like   #394
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The logical solution is to offer a pocket-small optical-controller strobe for the hotshoe.
If they can do it for a GPS module, then you'd certainly think it would be possible.

07-11-2016, 10:34 AM   #395
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QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
I'm a bit late in the discussion, but you're perfectly right. I'm using the wireless control quite often with my actual camera. But for me, the real problem isn't that Pentax removed this feature in the K-70 (and KS-2, K-3ii, K1...). It's that no satisfying alternatives are proposed to replace it. It would not be a big problem if, let say, Pentax would have lauched at the same time a cheap flash controller, or, even better, a P-TTL RF flash trigger. People would not have complained, particularly if the second option was available! But now, people who are used to work with off camera flash are left in the dark (pun intended). You can't ask people to spend an additional 400$ on a 360 flash just to be used as a flash controller and replace a feature they had for years supported natively in body !

For people needing this functionality, it's certainly something to think about. Because right now using flashes off camera with Pentax bodies is becoming a major issue for many users, and not only a K-70 downside. I hope Pentax will address this problem soon. It shouldn't be that coslty to make a basic flash controller, add the functionality to the cheap AF-2xx line or develop a RF trigger...

It's not like if flash trigerring is some a niche or exotic feature. In 2016, it's a basic DSLR functionality for which you expect to have many options, no matter the manufacturer or price of the body.
It may not be the tool you want but yes you can remote trigger the flash of the KS2 and I imagine you can with the K70 too:

Use Ricoh's Image Sync app on your smartphone....
And yes I completely agree that it needs some attention as the wi-fi connectivity isn't as reliable as it should be. My guess tho is that Ricoh's intent is for the Android/iOS app to fill some of the niche' needs such as this. Now if you're referring to off-camera flash I agree that it's problematic. I use a sync cord between the camera and my AF-540FGZ, so hardly to be considered "off-camera" even tho it may physically be.

Last edited by gatorguy; 07-11-2016 at 10:40 AM.
07-11-2016, 10:35 AM   #396
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The logical solution is to offer a pocket-small optical-controller strobe for the hotshoe.
Exactly. Even simply adding a controller mode to the 201FG would do the trick. It's not like they had to develop a whole new technology. Just let the 201FG do what was doable with the pop up flash prior the K3. This shouldn't put the R&D dept. down to their knees...

QuoteQuote:
There's a difference between "Pentax doesn't make one" and the follow up "Pentax should make one", with the follow up suggestion " maybe if you need one and Pentax doesn't make one you should buy from a company that makes what you need." If we start getting into what companies "should do" Nikon and Canon should have in body shake reduction and Pixel shift. "You pays your money and you takes your pick."
I've never said that Pentax should provide Canon or Nikon capabilities from the pop up flash of an entry or mid level camera (although that would be fine!). And yes, if I needed them, I would use a Canon or Nikon. I'm only saying that Pentax should find a solution to provide a cheap and easy way to use off camera flashes in P-TTL mode, something most Pentax camera bodies in the digital era prior the K-3 were able to do from their in body flash. It's not like the tech never existed or Pentax never mastered it... Sure, it was basic but it still worked fine.

Last edited by CarlJF; 07-11-2016 at 11:30 AM.
07-11-2016, 11:27 AM   #397
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
If they can do it for a GPS module, then you'd certainly think it would be possible.
You'd think they could add the 'Z' to the AF201FG

Oops. CarlJF beat me.
07-11-2016, 11:42 AM - 1 Like   #398
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QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
Sure, it was basic but it still worked fine.
I'm not a flash master, but I've tried triggering a P-TTL capable flash off camera with the built-in flash on the K-30 and while it may be better than nothing, it is only so by a small amount. If I want to become serious about flash photography, a couple of cheap RF triggers is the way I would go. If Pentax decides to implement P-TTL with radio waves instead of light waves, they need to enhance P-TTL to allow for zone control of off-camera flashes AND provide better metering options.

07-11-2016, 01:52 PM   #399
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I'm not taking sides here, but just for the sake of adding my two cents...
With my K-S1 made one shot less than 3700 actuations in the past six months and the flash talk provoked me to go through all the resulting K-S1 folders and images and I managed to count exactly twelve shots where I used the built in flash. That would be like 0.3% of all shots. Didn't count before, but was sure that I'd rather have Astrotracer than a built in flash when I was tinkering between K-3 or K-3 II.
07-11-2016, 03:18 PM   #400
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Same old argument for me. If a feature is on a Pentax camera it should work well.
I don't use onboard HDR, or any of the art filters, but I would use the interval mode (if it didn't just stop randomly, with no reason/error message given) and the video mode.
Likewise with flash. It's a poor argument to say I don't use it, so it shouldn't be there, as we all use the camera differently.
I expect the HDR mode to work for example, even though I don't use it myself.


Bottom line, the K-30 offered the flash commander mode, but the K-70 doesn't. Pentax have taken it away. There may be sensible reasons for this, such as running out of space on the CPU, and prioritising other features such as pixelshift over this one. Or it may be the start of the Canon approach, of limiting software between models to create a point of difference.

Solution to me is the new cactus Vii commanders, which finally allow you to remote control off camera HSS, without the outright stupid Pentax requirement to buy a whole other no image contributing HSS capable flash, just to use as a commander for another off camera HSS flash?!
07-12-2016, 02:20 AM   #401
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QuoteOriginally posted by CarlJF Quote
I'm a bit late in the discussion, but you're perfectly right. I'm using the wireless control quite often with my actual camera. But for me, the real problem isn't that Pentax removed this feature in the K-70 (and KS-2, K-3ii, K1...). It's that no satisfying alternatives are proposed to replace it. It would not be a big problem if, let say, Pentax would have lauched at the same time a cheap flash controller, or, even better, a P-TTL RF flash trigger. People would not have complained, particularly if the second option was available! But now, people who are used to work with off camera flash are left in the dark (pun intended). You can't ask people to spend an additional 400$ on a 360 flash just to be used as a flash controller and replace a feature they had for years supported natively in body !

For people needing this functionality, it's certainly something to think about. Because right now using flashes off camera with Pentax bodies is becoming a major issue for many users, and not only a K-70 downside. I hope Pentax will address this problem soon. It shouldn't be that coslty to make a basic flash controller, add the functionality to the cheap AF-2xx line or develop a RF trigger...

It's not like if flash triggering is some a niche or exotic feature. In 2016, it's a basic DSLR functionality for which you expect to have many options, no matter the manufacturer or price of the body.
I think they removed wireless flash commander feature from the K-70 because then the K-70 with on-board flash commander would have looked pretty attractive proposal in from of K-3 II which doesn't have any on-board flash.

such a setup with the K-3 II or K-1 will need 2 or more external flashes increasing expenses.
07-12-2016, 05:24 PM - 1 Like   #402
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QuoteOriginally posted by richandfleur Quote
Solution to me is the new cactus Vii commanders, which finally allow you to remote control off camera HSS, without the outright stupid Pentax requirement to buy a whole other no image contributing HSS capable flash, just to use as a commander for another off camera HSS flash?!
+1

I realise that many people like built-in pop-up flashes but their utility on Pentax cameras was rather limited:
  1. Low guide number and lack of bouncing and swivelling limits applicability.
  2. Tiny, on-axis light source. This may be good for a very subtle fill at best. Joe McNally refers to images lit on-axis with no diffusion as "no picture".
  3. Optical triggering has its limitations, in particular with a weak commander.
  4. Even in commander mode, there will always be a weak contribution of the flash, which may show as reflections, for instance.
  5. No HSS-master capability. With the exception of one early *ist model, pop-up flashes were only useful for up-to-sync-speed photography. What's the point of a system-dedicated optical commander, if it cannot even remotely trigger HSS flashes?
All the above made pop-up flashes more of a toy to me than something that I could actually use in my photography.

The Cactus V6II now supports HSS (and PowerSync) with Pentax cameras, not only in combination with Pentax flashes but a host of other flashes from other systems. It does not support automatic exposure control, but remote control of power levels and zoom settings of up to four groups. There is a dedicated hardware interface for changing power levels individually or in a synchronised fashion which makes adjustments a matter of seconds. There are also many features that go way beyond of what P-TTL (and in particular a pop-up flash) has to offer.

P-TTL automatic exposure still has its application areas but there are a lot of scenarios that can be very efficiently be handled with manual flash power control which will at least always yield consistent and reproducible results.
07-13-2016, 06:35 AM   #403
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There is no detailed description of Hybrid AF system, by the way.
07-13-2016, 10:06 AM   #404
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QuoteOriginally posted by anu l Quote
I think they removed wireless flash commander feature from the K-70 because then the K-70 with on-board flash commander would have looked pretty attractive proposal in from of K-3 II which doesn't have any on-board flash.

such a setup with the K-3 II or K-1 will need 2 or more external flashes increasing expenses.
Exactly. The only reason they did it is to make them more money. Nikon did the same with the new D500. Canon amazingly did include it o n the new 7DMkII, but left out wireless connectivity in their own personal, screw-you, buy our more expensive cameras for that, love note.
07-13-2016, 10:17 AM   #405
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They did it so they could stuff in WiFi and GPS and still keep it compact.
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