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08-06-2016, 09:40 AM   #391
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... but to increase sales...

08-06-2016, 09:42 AM   #392
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
From that point of view KAF 4 actually induced this increased cost by introducing a different standard. Some of the very recently release lenses like the DFA line would be available for the years to come likely for around 10 years. The FA ltd have been available already for more than 15 years and are still in the official line up.

By introducing KAF4 they increase the cost and they have no chance for this additionnal cost of more inventory, more things to master etc as you explained before at least 10 years and 10-20 more years to stop compatibilities of old KAF3 lenses on bodies.

And all of this is for something that may cost $1 to manufacture and that all their workers master perfectly. They didn't introduce KAF4 to reduce costs.
I believe the cost will be saved later on, for now, in some bodies like the k30, specific function of modern lenses like the 150-450 or the 70-200 cannot be used (the buttons in the lens), before that they tried this removing the screwdriver function from the bodies (the k3 or new bodies wont use the screwdriver even if the lens was hacked for the exclusive use of that motor), with the Kaf4 they will denied the use of older bodies in new gen lenses ( i believe consumer grade for now, and posibly third parties like Sigma, Tamron, Zeiss (if they come back) to let them absorb the hate of the new mount) as other manufactirers like Laowa, Samyang or Irix prob they can use the PK-A mount)

This way they can force some users to migrate slowly to new bodies, and maintain greater compatibility on expensive lenses using the Kaf3 and have bigger potencial market to sell that kind of lenses.


08-06-2016, 10:07 AM - 2 Likes   #393
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As for making cameras that don't make use of all lenses and only use electronic apertures, Pentax is quite late to the game. I heard Nikon and Canon users complaining about this kind of thing years ago. Sometimes the insulated nature of the Pentax community makes them un-aware of what's happened in the rest of the world.

SO here, the real question...

If Pentax has the ability to produce a lens that focusses 1.7 to 7 times faster, but is incompatible with their older cameras, should they do that?

I would say of course they should.

Pentax has an obligation to take advantage of the technological advances happening day to day. A prospective Pentax buyer should have a feature set comparable to the competition. If the competition saves on base level cameras by going electronic only and Pentax can knock $50 off the price of the camera by doing so and have a better performing camera, I say go for it.

I would hope Pentax would always produce one body that will use legacy lenses, and I hope it will be the K-1. But it should be something premium users buy. Not Joe Schmoe and his wife walking around at Costco, have to buy. Backwards comparability is a frill, not a necessity. And everyone in the Canikon world already knows that.

If Pentax can put out a KAF4 system, that is a better value than Canikon equivalent systems for entry level users, that is a good thing. Trying to paint this as some kind of crime against existing users myopic. Us existing users are dying off. Anyone who starts KAF4 and develops an interest in legacy glass, will be the kind of user who should own a K-1 in any case. Most legacy glass isn't even APS-c optimized. Thinking entry level APS-c should support FF legacy glass, in one sense is almost perverse.

Encourage people to buy a sensor that makes use of the capability of the glass.

With the price of the K-1, it's almost a crime to suggest people buy a K-70 to use legacy FF glass. This isn't the Canokon world where the price of entry in the FF club is outrageously high for a decent feature set.

Last edited by normhead; 08-06-2016 at 10:12 AM.
08-06-2016, 10:25 AM   #394
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Firmware update for K-S1, K-S2, K-3 II and K-1: compatibility with KAF4 lens mount (electromagnetic diaphragm control system).

Latest PENTAX K-S1 Firmware Update : Software Downloads | RICOH IMAGING

Latest PENTAX K-S2 Firmware Update : Software Downloads | RICOH IMAGING

Latest PENTAX K-3 II Firmware Update : Software Downloads | RICOH IMAGING

Latest PENTAX K-1 Firmware Update : Software Downloads | RICOH IMAGING

08-06-2016, 11:17 AM   #395
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
This isn't the Canokon world where the price of entry in the FF club is outrageously high for a decent feature set.
Actually Canikon quite cheaper to enter this club and Sony too.

Canon 6D on Amazon (fr): 1340
D610 on Pixmania.fr: 1187
D750 (grey market): 1499
A7 on Amazon (fr): 1093
A7R (Fnac.fr, great reputation): 1599
A7II (Fnac.fr...): 1619

K1 eveyrwhere: 1999. While K1 as some edge overall all the others (pixel shift, GPS and for some 36MP) camera, the reverse also true some are small light with EVF, some have better AF...
08-06-2016, 12:19 PM   #396
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You seem to have missed "for a decent feature set"...
08-06-2016, 12:29 PM   #397
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
You seem to have missed "for a decent feature set"...
Ah sorry, but that's subjective I guess. You find in the selection I provided camera with sometime same focus as K1 (high resolution) or a different one: better AF, being small/light or giving a very affordable entry level camera for FF.

Would Pentax offer something similar at the same price point I think many here would be happy about it. I actually think many would love an FF mirrorless with nice EVF feature in K-mount as an example. And many would appreciate a 24MP DSLR that concentrate on the essential for a good price...

We may very well get one of theses body in the near/mid future depending of what Ricoh plan are...
08-06-2016, 01:34 PM   #398
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Actually Canikon quite cheaper to enter this club and Sony too.

Canon 6D on Amazon (fr): 1340
D610 on Pixmania.fr: 1187
D750 (grey market): 1499
A7 on Amazon (fr): 1093
A7R (Fnac.fr, great reputation): 1599
A7II (Fnac.fr...): 1619

K1 eveyrwhere: 1999. While K1 as some edge overall all the others (pixel shift, GPS and for some 36MP) camera, the reverse also true some are small light with EVF, some have better AF...
all of these camera's are much older than the K-1. Only one has IBIS. only one has 36mp no dslr with 1/8000th shutter speed or better weather sealing except for maybe the d750. (which costs 2149,- in regular shops by the way) K-1 I can buy for 1899,- at this moment. When you look at the biggest competitor the Nikon D750:
It has IBIS, 36mp instead of 24. GPS and astro tracer. 1/8000 vs 1/4000. ISO up to 204800 instead of 12800.

08-06-2016, 01:45 PM   #399
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Actually Canikon quite cheaper to enter this club and Sony too.

Canon 6D on Amazon (fr): 1340
D610 on Pixmania.fr: 1187
D750 (grey market): 1499
A7 on Amazon (fr): 1093
A7R (Fnac.fr, great reputation): 1599
A7II (Fnac.fr...): 1619

K1 eveyrwhere: 1999. While K1 as some edge overall all the others (pixel shift, GPS and for some 36MP) camera, the reverse also true some are small light with EVF, some have better AF...
When the K-1 is 2-4 years old as these bodies are, and a successor is released, I'm sure the price will fall and then it'll really be a bargain while remaining competitive. But yes, it is currently cheaper to start with another FF system is you want to spend as little as possible.

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08-06-2016, 01:50 PM   #400
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
When the K-1 is 2-4 years old as these bodies are, and a successor is released, I'm sure the price will fall and then it'll really be a bargain while remaining competitive. But yes, it is currently cheaper to start with another FF system is you want to spend as little as possible.
I fully agree, this is the idea that kind of Pentax is the cheapest, best deal whatever in FF I think is quite overhyped. Yeah Pentax APSC body are at very attractive price but there lack at least an entry level FF for Pentax to claim to be budget oriented in that segment. At its current price, K1 is in the middle of many other models that are not necessarilly worse but just different.
08-06-2016, 01:52 PM   #401
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
all of these camera's are much older than the K-1. Only one has IBIS. only one has 36mp no dslr with 1/8000th shutter speed or better weather sealing except for maybe the d750. (which costs 2149,- in regular shops by the way) K-1 I can buy for 1899,- at this moment. When you look at the biggest competitor the Nikon D750:
It has IBIS, 36mp instead of 24. GPS and astro tracer. 1/8000 vs 1/4000. ISO up to 204800 instead of 12800.
Release date doesn't count honestly. What count is what you actually get.

High iso ? All theses body have similar performance except maybe the Canon that would be a little behind. What ever the number shown in specs is pure marketing.

IBIS is true (and I like it) but all the other manufacturers modern lenses are stabilized as well as the one from sigma or tamron. The new DFA lenses are not cheaper because they don't need stabilization... Some would claim in lens stabilization to be actually better for teles. All in all this is more about taste than really something that would put the K1 as a better body. IBIS also is in need of a patch or something in K1 as it actually worse to have it with the 28-105 in the 1/60-1/150s range.

So some have 36MP, some have better AF, all are lighter. Some are much cheaper. They are different choice, I would not say worse. Except for me of course I am quite concerned about K-mount compatibility and that one of the key reason I would get a K1 if I was to get an FF. But it is quite likely I'd wait for something else maybe a K-mount mirrorless small and light?

Last edited by Nicolas06; 08-06-2016 at 02:02 PM.
08-06-2016, 01:57 PM   #402
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I fully agree, this is the idea that kind of Pentax is the cheapest, best deal whatever in FF I think is quite overhyped. Yeah Pentax APSC body are at very attractive price but there lack at least an entry level FF for Pentax to claim to be budget oriented in that segment. At its current price, K1 is in the middle of many other models that are not necessarilly worse but just different.
Yeah, FF comparisons certainly aren't apples to apples. But the K-1 isn't an entry-level model, either, so it should realistically be compared to the D800 and 5D III on the used market.

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08-06-2016, 02:14 PM   #403
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QuoteOriginally posted by Adam Quote
Yeah, FF comparisons certainly aren't apples to apples. But the K-1 isn't an entry-level model, either, so it should realistically be compared to the D800 and 5D III on the used market.
I think in term of feature D750 is comparable. D750 better for weddings/sports thanks to its better AF and K1 better for landscape and astro photography. What to choose depends of your priorities. In practice both would be able to do everything anyway.

It is possible here to find 5Dmark III and D810 for a bit more than the K1, but arguably still in the same price range. The D810 is 2100-2300 new on many online shop. Resolution the same on that D810, arguably some people would prefer pixel shift but other would find iso 50 to be significantly more practical.

And if you were to factor lenses into the deal, we have the same issue here as with K1: the DFA lenses are quite expensive because quite new and there not that many entry/mid level DFA lenses yet. Sigma/tamron offering is also quite smaller...

We are far from bad but I would not say other manufacturers are worse and make you pay more to enter the selective club of FF owners.
08-06-2016, 03:28 PM   #404
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Release date doesn't count honestly. What count is what you actually get.
If you are going to compare prices release date counts.
08-06-2016, 11:20 PM   #405
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
If you are going to compare prices release date counts.
Man I buy features and I buy at a price. I buy what is available too.

So if it is no longer available or not yet available that's important. if it is available, has the feature set I need and a good price, that perfect.

Usually prices go down after a time so obviously somebody after a good buy would be advised to look for gear that was out for some time instead of latest greatest that typically come with a premium for people that accept to pay more to get it now. Some people will also check the sales on same old product. At time you could buy a K30 + 18-135 for 400... Difficult to beat that for example, you could resell both and ebay and make a benefit ! Even now years after that still increadible price.

But I'll not spend more on something just because it is newer. I'll spend more if it is better.

There other benefit from buying older gear... The bugs usually have been fixed or at least known. Like D600 oil issues, D750 ligth leaks. Here we start to see issues with K1 IBIS when used with some lenses like 28-105. But we don't know yet how offen, why and if it will be fixed with a firmware release or whatever else about that issue.
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