New Pentax K-70

Nicolas06 · 09-03-2016, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by jgnfld

Here's one K70 pic requiring fast and accurate focus taken with the old 55-300 SMC DAL as my PLM has not yet arrived.
Note that you can see me shooting into this pretty dense thicket from a pondside trail in the warbler's eye. I personally consider this good sharpness as the eye is about 4mm and the pic is taken at a range that this was required to be a near 100% crop even at 300mm. (click pic for exif info)

It doesn't look like the bird was moving that fast and eratically. The 1/160s shutter speed would have made it blury.

By the way, did you used LV or OVF? In the OVF, the K70 is the same as K5-II that the same as K5 with improved low light capabilities but that did required there. Using OVF, K70 same as K30/K50/K5 and gain match K5-II, KS2, KS2 for low light. But doesn't approach a K3 or K1.

jgnfld · 09-03-2016, 08:18 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

It doesn't look like the bird was moving that fast and eratically. The 1/160s shutter speed would have made it blury.

By the way, did you used LV or OVF? In the OVF, the K70 is the same as K5-II that the same as K5 with improved low light capabilities but that did required there. Using OVF, K70 same as K30/K50/K5 and gain match K5-II, KS2, KS2 for low light. But doesn't approach a K3 or K1.

It was flitting--and quite erratically too from my human viewpoint--from branch to branch about once per 2 secs.

Nicolas06 · 09-03-2016, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by jgnfld

Your conclusion may be country dependent. For example, the K3 is unavailable in Canada at any outlet I've seen. The K3ii is NOT the same price as the K70...basically $1150Cdn versus $750Cdn.

Very true but then it is not as much as K3-II is expensive in Canada, it is not, but more that the K70 is very cheap were you live... Here you get a K50 for that price, no more.

Anyway, that still an issue in US or France apparently, maybe many more and it doesn't remove the problem entirely: buy the previous flagship on sale just before it retire and you make a much better deal than to buy the entry level at max entry price when it just goes out.

I really hope you get much better things from the PLM version, but I kind of doubt it. Optics should be no greater and 55-300 was fast at focussing already and for birding you are quite likely to use OVF where you don't benefit that much from it.

Nicolas06 · 09-03-2016, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by jgnfld

It was flitting--and quite erratically too from my human viewpoint--from branch to branch about once per 2 secs.

And you used Live View?

jgnfld · 09-03-2016, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

And you used Live View?

No. I hardly ever use live view except for taking pictures of mushrooms under trees or elsewhere on the forest floor. That's one reason I don't like point and shoots in general either though I have one.I prefer the direct view of the viewfinder.

Other settings: AF set to spot (as I always do when dealing with birds). Av mode set at f7.1, ISO locked at 400, camera picked shutter speed.

Here's a mushroom taken with LV through the 55-300 SMC DAL (my 100 macro would have been better but I wasn't carrying it). Note that focus probably should have been a bit deeper...

Nicolas06 · 09-03-2016, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by jgnfld

No. I hardly ever use live view except for taking pictures of mushrooms under trees or elsewhere on the forest floor. That's one reason I don't like point and shoots in general either though I have one.I prefer the direct view of the viewfinder.

But then you get K5-II AF basically. maybe they improved the algorithms a bit but the hardware for OVF, K5-II it is. Also present in KS2.

That nice you made a great buy and it is capable... but all Pentax camera are quite capable

Sometime reading the latest anoucement one would think that nothing work if you don't have latest greatest. Wrong. I am sure similar shoot could have been done with a KS2, K5-II, even likely a K50.

thibs · 09-04-2016, 12:55 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

But then you get K5-II AF basically. maybe they improved the algorithms a bit but the hardware for OVF, K5-II it is. Also present in KS2.

That nice you made a great buy and it is capable... but all Pentax camera are quite capable

Sometime reading the latest anoucement one would think that nothing work if you don't have latest greatest. Wrong. I am sure similar shoot could have been done with a KS2, K5-II, even likely a K50.

So once again, you didn't use a K70 but you're confident staying it has a K5 AF.
Funny of it wasn't sad.

Nicolas06 · 09-04-2016, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by thibs

So once again, you didn't use a K70 but you're confident staying it has a K5 AF.
Funny of it wasn't sad.

You think Ricoh lied on purpose just to give a nice surprise to their client? Do you really think that?

K70 AF from Ricoh website:
Focus Sensor : SAFOX X, 11 points (9 cross type focus points in the center)
Brightness Range: EV -3 to 18 (ISO100/at normal temperature)
AF mode: Single AF (AF, S) Continuous AF (AF, C), Auto select AF (AF, A)
AF point selection : Auto: 11 points, Auto: 5 points, Select, Expanded Area Select, Spot

K5-II :
SAFOX X, 11 point (9 cross type focus points in the center)
Sensitivity range: EV-3 to 18 (ISO 100 / at normal temperature)
Focus modes: Single AF (AF.S): Focus or shutter release priority mode; Continuous AF (AF.C):Focus or FPS priority mode
Focus point adjustment: Auto: 5 points, Auto: 11 points, Select, Expanded, Spot

And just for info K3:
SAFOX 11, 27 point (25 cross type focus points in the center)
Sensitivity range: EV-3 to 18 (ISO 100 / at normal temperature)
Focus modes: Single AF (AF.S), Continuous AF (AF.C), Auto select AF (AF.A)
Customization on focus settings possible
Focus point adjustment: Spot, Select, Expanded Area (S, M, L), Zone select, Auto (27 AF points)

Or K1:
SAFOX 12, 33 point (25 cross type focus points in the center)
Sensitivity range: EV-3 to 18 (ISO 100 / at normal temperature)
Focus modes: Single AF (AF.S), Continuous AF (AF.C)
Focus point adjustment: Spot, Select, Expanded Area (S, M, L), Zone select, Auto (33 AF points)

There no differnece between K5-II and K70 focussing hardware and when Pentax forum tested the K70 they observed no improvement at all. Yet you think that despite the specs, the abscence of any marketing of much better AF and our friend there finding no improvement at all, that somehow significantly better AF.

And oviously the better AF bodies are K3 and K1, not K5-II or K70... I don't think that Ricoh put some Safox 12 unit on K70, without saying to anybody, no, sorry.

D1N0 · 09-04-2016, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

There no differnece between K5-II and K70 focussing hardware

Yes there is. The K5 II has no on sensor pdaf cdaf hybrid focussing.

Nicolas06 · 09-04-2016, 08:55 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

Yes there is. The K5 II has no on sensor pdaf cdaf hybrid focussing.

The only problem behind is it work only in LV, if you use the OVF, the mirror hide the scene from the sensor till the last moment and so this doesn't change anything for example on the scene with the bird just before or most still usages.

LV would be helpfull for some macro shots, tripod, stuff like that or video.

But the performance there is still not up to the level of the dedicated PDAF sensor apparently. From the review on this Pentax forum website:

Quote:

After reading the K-70 press release, we were excited to hear that the K-70 would be incorporating a hybrid live view autofocus system with sensor-plane phase detection sensors. These sensors work just like the viewfinder autofocus system and can potentially help speed up live view autofocus, which otherwise works through trial-and-error contrast detection.
Sadly, we became quite disappointed when we discovered that the K-70's live view focusing speed/behavior was really no different in practice than that of the K-3, K-S2, or K-1. The camera still uses contrast detection and can be painfully slow if it overshoots the correct focus point.
The live view AF options are 100% unchanged compared to the K-S2. Continuous focusing has not been added, nor is there any setting/indication suggesting phase detection operation.
While Pentax's contrast detection implementation in live view is quite good to begin with for real-world shooting, the K-70 certainly doesn't live up to the hype of an overhauled live view autofocus system. Perhaps the camera is in need of a firmware update or PLM lens to fully unleash its power; while we doubt this possibility, it is something that we will be investigating.

Read more at: Pentax K-70 First Impressions Review - Hands-On Tests | PentaxForums.com

For now this isn't of any help for any action related AF operation. The K70 is an opportuny for Ricoh to learn from in sensor PDAF, I am sure they'll fix the AF in LV to make it fast, but this may appear only in the next APSC flagship or even latter. That one will anyway have the best dedicated PDAF in OVF so far on top of the best LV performance from K70 and improvement from experience.

We could hope for firmware update but I'll not count on it. The software may need more processing power, and I never saw any announcement that K5-II benefiting of K3 improvement or an update of K3 benefiting of K3-II and K1 improvements in term of AF algorithms.

The K70 is still mostly a KS2 and that in reality very fine hardware, very capable and handy with articulated screen, wifi and such. And for AF, this is still a K5-II, itself small improvement over K5.

This is not a flagship with the best AF. By far. That's just my point. If you buy a K70 as entry level like you would a KS2 or K50 not long ago, you'd be very satisfied. There a lot to love here. If you'd upgrade you'll not see much difference. If you come from K3 and up, you'll find the AF quite limited on day to day operation: less precise, slower and much less efficiant tracking.

D1N0 · 09-04-2016, 09:06 AM

Originally posted by Nicolas06

The only problem behind is it work only in LV, if you use the OVF

I am aware of how a dslr works. My point is the AF system is different. I think the preview the forum did drew very preliminary conclusions. They didn't even use the new pls lens. The sensor is the big advancement of the k-70. It is probably the best aps-c sensor in a Pentax camera yet. Also the addition of psr is a great bonus over competitors. Hopefully ricoh can tweak the sensor AF-performance a bit, so it works better with all lenses.

ogl · 09-04-2016, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

Yes there is. The K5 II has no on sensor pdaf cdaf hybrid focussing.

K-70 has pdaf and cdaf af points only on paper

Nobody know the real specs.

D1N0 · 09-04-2016, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by ogl

K-70 has pdaf and cdaf af points only on paper

Nobody know the real specs.

so you are saying the sensor cannot AF at all because of no AF points.

Nicolas06 · 09-04-2016, 09:48 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by D1N0

so you are saying the sensor cannot AF at all because of no AF points.

Let's say for now it look like more marketing than real. A single PLM lens (and entry level at that, and not even a transtandard). No AFC and slow operation in LV with conventionnal lenses. There no many area were this key improvement of K70 is leveraged outside of marketing spec sheets. And we don't know even with a PLM lens if it would still work at f/8 or if the PDAF AF point on the sensor are limited to f/5.6...

In a few years with many more PLM lenses and improved algorithm that might be quite different... and surely another camera body.

There really nothing to complain really K70 is like KS2 with free improved sensor, so that quite nice but don't expect too much from it in the short term. And don't buy it as anything revolutionnary.

ogl · 09-04-2016, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

so you are saying the sensor cannot AF at all because of no AF points.

It was sad joke. K-70 is only ONE camera on photo market which has no any good and deep description of Hybrid AF.
Basic info without any explanation of K-70's Hybrid AF system on official web-site. It's all.

We don't even know if K-70 has such AF system in the reality...

09-03-2016, 08:28 AM	#333
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by jgnfld Your conclusion may be country dependent. For example, the K3 is unavailable in Canada at any outlet I've seen. The K3ii is NOT the same price as the K70...basically $1150Cdn versus $750Cdn. Very true but then it is not as much as K3-II is expensive in Canada, it is not, but more that the K70 is very cheap were you live... Here you get a K50 for that price, no more. Anyway, that still an issue in US or France apparently, maybe many more and it doesn't remove the problem entirely: buy the previous flagship on sale just before it retire and you make a much better deal than to buy the entry level at max entry price when it just goes out. I really hope you get much better things from the PLM version, but I kind of doubt it. Optics should be no greater and 55-300 was fast at focussing already and for birding you are quite likely to use OVF where you don't benefit that much from it. Last edited by Nicolas06; 09-03-2016 at 08:37 AM.

09-03-2016, 08:46 AM	#335
jgnfld Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,798	Originally posted by Nicolas06 And you used Live View? No. I hardly ever use live view except for taking pictures of mushrooms under trees or elsewhere on the forest floor. That's one reason I don't like point and shoots in general either though I have one.I prefer the direct view of the viewfinder. Other settings: AF set to spot (as I always do when dealing with birds). Av mode set at f7.1, ISO locked at 400, camera picked shutter speed. Here's a mushroom taken with LV through the 55-300 SMC DAL (my 100 macro would have been better but I wasn't carrying it). Note that focus probably should have been a bit deeper... Last edited by jgnfld; 09-03-2016 at 08:53 AM.

09-04-2016, 04:54 AM	#338
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by thibs So once again, you didn't use a K70 but you're confident staying it has a K5 AF. Funny of it wasn't sad. You think Ricoh lied on purpose just to give a nice surprise to their client? Do you really think that? K70 AF from Ricoh website: Focus Sensor : SAFOX X, 11 points (9 cross type focus points in the center) Brightness Range: EV -3 to 18 (ISO100/at normal temperature) AF mode: Single AF (AF, S) Continuous AF (AF, C), Auto select AF (AF, A) AF point selection : Auto: 11 points, Auto: 5 points, Select, Expanded Area Select, Spot K5-II : SAFOX X, 11 point (9 cross type focus points in the center) Sensitivity range: EV-3 to 18 (ISO 100 / at normal temperature) Focus modes: Single AF (AF.S): Focus or shutter release priority mode; Continuous AF (AF.C):Focus or FPS priority mode Focus point adjustment: Auto: 5 points, Auto: 11 points, Select, Expanded, Spot And just for info K3: SAFOX 11, 27 point (25 cross type focus points in the center) Sensitivity range: EV-3 to 18 (ISO 100 / at normal temperature) Focus modes: Single AF (AF.S), Continuous AF (AF.C), Auto select AF (AF.A) Customization on focus settings possible Focus point adjustment: Spot, Select, Expanded Area (S, M, L), Zone select, Auto (27 AF points) Or K1: SAFOX 12, 33 point (25 cross type focus points in the center) Sensitivity range: EV-3 to 18 (ISO 100 / at normal temperature) Focus modes: Single AF (AF.S), Continuous AF (AF.C) Focus point adjustment: Spot, Select, Expanded Area (S, M, L), Zone select, Auto (33 AF points) There no differnece between K5-II and K70 focussing hardware and when Pentax forum tested the K70 they observed no improvement at all. Yet you think that despite the specs, the abscence of any marketing of much better AF and our friend there finding no improvement at all, that somehow significantly better AF. And oviously the better AF bodies are K3 and K1, not K5-II or K70... I don't think that Ricoh put some Safox 12 unit on K70, without saying to anybody, no, sorry. Last edited by Nicolas06; 09-04-2016 at 05:03 AM.

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09-03-2016, 08:11 AM	#331
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by jgnfld Here's one K70 pic requiring fast and accurate focus taken with the old 55-300 SMC DAL as my PLM has not yet arrived. Note that you can see me shooting into this pretty dense thicket from a pondside trail in the warbler's eye. I personally consider this good sharpness as the eye is about 4mm and the pic is taken at a range that this was required to be a near 100% crop even at 300mm. (click pic for exif info) It doesn't look like the bird was moving that fast and eratically. The 1/160s shutter speed would have made it blury. By the way, did you used LV or OVF? In the OVF, the K70 is the same as K5-II that the same as K5 with improved low light capabilities but that did required there. Using OVF, K70 same as K30/K50/K5 and gain match K5-II, KS2, KS2 for low light. But doesn't approach a K3 or K1.

09-03-2016, 08:18 AM	#332
jgnfld Moderator Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: Avalon Peninsula, Newfoundland Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,798	Originally posted by Nicolas06 It doesn't look like the bird was moving that fast and eratically. The 1/160s shutter speed would have made it blury. By the way, did you used LV or OVF? In the OVF, the K70 is the same as K5-II that the same as K5 with improved low light capabilities but that did required there. Using OVF, K70 same as K30/K50/K5 and gain match K5-II, KS2, KS2 for low light. But doesn't approach a K3 or K1. It was flitting--and quite erratically too from my human viewpoint--from branch to branch about once per 2 secs.

09-03-2016, 08:38 AM	#334
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by jgnfld It was flitting--and quite erratically too from my human viewpoint--from branch to branch about once per 2 secs. And you used Live View?

09-03-2016, 05:28 PM	#336
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by jgnfld No. I hardly ever use live view except for taking pictures of mushrooms under trees or elsewhere on the forest floor. That's one reason I don't like point and shoots in general either though I have one.I prefer the direct view of the viewfinder. But then you get K5-II AF basically. maybe they improved the algorithms a bit but the hardware for OVF, K5-II it is. Also present in KS2. That nice you made a great buy and it is capable... but all Pentax camera are quite capable Sometime reading the latest anoucement one would think that nothing work if you don't have latest greatest. Wrong. I am sure similar shoot could have been done with a KS2, K5-II, even likely a K50.

09-04-2016, 12:55 AM	#337
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Nicolas06 But then you get K5-II AF basically. maybe they improved the algorithms a bit but the hardware for OVF, K5-II it is. Also present in KS2. That nice you made a great buy and it is capable... but all Pentax camera are quite capable Sometime reading the latest anoucement one would think that nothing work if you don't have latest greatest. Wrong. I am sure similar shoot could have been done with a KS2, K5-II, even likely a K50. So once again, you didn't use a K70 but you're confident staying it has a K5 AF. Funny of it wasn't sad.

09-04-2016, 07:01 AM	#339
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Nicolas06 There no differnece between K5-II and K70 focussing hardware Yes there is. The K5 II has no on sensor pdaf cdaf hybrid focussing.

09-04-2016, 08:55 AM	#340
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by D1N0 Yes there is. The K5 II has no on sensor pdaf cdaf hybrid focussing. The only problem behind is it work only in LV, if you use the OVF, the mirror hide the scene from the sensor till the last moment and so this doesn't change anything for example on the scene with the bird just before or most still usages. LV would be helpfull for some macro shots, tripod, stuff like that or video. But the performance there is still not up to the level of the dedicated PDAF sensor apparently. From the review on this Pentax forum website: Quote: After reading the K-70 press release, we were excited to hear that the K-70 would be incorporating a hybrid live view autofocus system with sensor-plane phase detection sensors. These sensors work just like the viewfinder autofocus system and can potentially help speed up live view autofocus, which otherwise works through trial-and-error contrast detection. Sadly, we became quite disappointed when we discovered that the K-70's live view focusing speed/behavior was really no different in practice than that of the K-3, K-S2, or K-1. The camera still uses contrast detection and can be painfully slow if it overshoots the correct focus point. The live view AF options are 100% unchanged compared to the K-S2. Continuous focusing has not been added, nor is there any setting/indication suggesting phase detection operation. While Pentax's contrast detection implementation in live view is quite good to begin with for real-world shooting, the K-70 certainly doesn't live up to the hype of an overhauled live view autofocus system. Perhaps the camera is in need of a firmware update or PLM lens to fully unleash its power; while we doubt this possibility, it is something that we will be investigating. Read more at: Pentax K-70 First Impressions Review - Hands-On Tests \| PentaxForums.com For now this isn't of any help for any action related AF operation. The K70 is an opportuny for Ricoh to learn from in sensor PDAF, I am sure they'll fix the AF in LV to make it fast, but this may appear only in the next APSC flagship or even latter. That one will anyway have the best dedicated PDAF in OVF so far on top of the best LV performance from K70 and improvement from experience. We could hope for firmware update but I'll not count on it. The software may need more processing power, and I never saw any announcement that K5-II benefiting of K3 improvement or an update of K3 benefiting of K3-II and K1 improvements in term of AF algorithms. The K70 is still mostly a KS2 and that in reality very fine hardware, very capable and handy with articulated screen, wifi and such. And for AF, this is still a K5-II, itself small improvement over K5. This is not a flagship with the best AF. By far. That's just my point. If you buy a K70 as entry level like you would a KS2 or K50 not long ago, you'd be very satisfied. There a lot to love here. If you'd upgrade you'll not see much difference. If you come from K3 and up, you'll find the AF quite limited on day to day operation: less precise, slower and much less efficiant tracking.

09-04-2016, 09:06 AM	#341
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Nicolas06 The only problem behind is it work only in LV, if you use the OVF I am aware of how a dslr works. My point is the AF system is different. I think the preview the forum did drew very preliminary conclusions. They didn't even use the new pls lens. The sensor is the big advancement of the k-70. It is probably the best aps-c sensor in a Pentax camera yet. Also the addition of psr is a great bonus over competitors. Hopefully ricoh can tweak the sensor AF-performance a bit, so it works better with all lenses.

09-04-2016, 09:16 AM	#342
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by D1N0 Yes there is. The K5 II has no on sensor pdaf cdaf hybrid focussing. K-70 has pdaf and cdaf af points only on paper Nobody know the real specs.

09-04-2016, 09:20 AM	#343
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by ogl K-70 has pdaf and cdaf af points only on paper Nobody know the real specs. so you are saying the sensor cannot AF at all because of no AF points.

09-04-2016, 09:48 AM - 1 Like	#344
Nicolas06 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 4,854	Originally posted by D1N0 so you are saying the sensor cannot AF at all because of no AF points. Let's say for now it look like more marketing than real. A single PLM lens (and entry level at that, and not even a transtandard). No AFC and slow operation in LV with conventionnal lenses. There no many area were this key improvement of K70 is leveraged outside of marketing spec sheets. And we don't know even with a PLM lens if it would still work at f/8 or if the PDAF AF point on the sensor are limited to f/5.6... In a few years with many more PLM lenses and improved algorithm that might be quite different... and surely another camera body. There really nothing to complain really K70 is like KS2 with free improved sensor, so that quite nice but don't expect too much from it in the short term. And don't buy it as anything revolutionnary.

09-04-2016, 09:52 AM	#345
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by D1N0 so you are saying the sensor cannot AF at all because of no AF points. It was sad joke. K-70 is only ONE camera on photo market which has no any good and deep description of Hybrid AF. Basic info without any explanation of K-70's Hybrid AF system on official web-site. It's all. We don't even know if K-70 has such AF system in the reality...