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09-22-2016, 02:05 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Most people come to this section of the forum in search of rumors. They do not care for the haters, whiners and personal x-mas wishlists and self important explanations what "somebody else has to do" which pollute so many threads.
I believe part of my Christmas wishlist is answered here. I felt that Pentax needed to modernize its lens lineup, and others have commented in the media that it needed work.

I sort of question the move to cooperating with Tamron with several lenses. I wonder whether sticking with Tokina would have been better. One mistake with the partnership with some of the DA lenses was to not get the Tokina 11-16mm 2.8, but the newer Tokina 11-20mm 2.8 is a lot better now. It would be nice if Pentax had have continued with Tokina and offered that 11-16mm or 11-20mm as a DA* lens thus completing the set with the 16-50 and 50-135 .......But with linear AF motors or ring motors.

If we don't let our wish list out there, then Ricoh won't know what their customers want and need. I guess Ricoh has to tidy up after the years of Hoya ownership.

09-22-2016, 03:10 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
If we don't let our wish list out there, then Ricoh won't know what their customers want and need.
Seller perspective:
They have much better and reliable methods of doing market research than caring about random forum whishlists (mostly from the usual worthless suspects). It makes good business sense to ignore all wishlists here alltogether in favor of statistical relevant data from people who they believe will actually put their money where their mouth is - the latter is where 95% wishlist-authors fail miserably.

Buyer perspective:
I'd be not so very intelligent to publish my x-mas wishlist not to my parents directly but hang it up on the wall somewhere in the city.
If a want a beer, I talk to the waiter, I don't twitter (that is childish whining, nothing else). Ricoh has both a facebook presence plus can be emailed directly.
09-22-2016, 03:23 AM   #33
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Seller perspective:
They have much better and reliable methods of doing market research than caring about random forum whishlists (mostly from the usual worthless suspects). It makes good business sense to ignore all wishlists here alltogether in favor of statistical relevant data from people who they believe will actually put their money where their mouth is - the latter is where 95% wishlist-authors fail miserably.

Buyer perspective:
I'd be not so very intelligent to publish my x-mas wishlist not to my parents directly but hang it up on the wall somewhere in the city.
If a want a beer, I talk to the waiter, I don't twitter (that is childish whining, nothing else). Ricoh has both a facebook presence plus can be emailed directly.
So basically we might as well close down the Pentax forum, and stop talking about Pentax camera products and what we like and don't like, and discussing what the products need.

I think the days of IGNORING THE FORUM, are over. Pentax has listened to its customers and brought out the K-1. Lens AF is still an issue and needs to be fixed.

Canon and Nikon are constantly being praised by its customers on forums because they listen to their customers and implement products and features their customers ask.

Shutting down free speech, or customer feedback is corporate suicide. I certainly hope that Pentax won't listen to folks who advocate that customer feedback be ignored in favor of focus group research..
09-22-2016, 03:26 AM   #34
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This forum is not all about making demands, and free spray is not only about whining.

09-22-2016, 03:52 AM - 1 Like   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
So basically we might as well close down the Pentax forum, and stop talking about Pentax camera products and what we like and don't like, and discussing what the products need..
Internet whiners like us are a vocal minority, Zoolander ... sensible corporations ignore outliers in the data. I've been involved in market research, and you discard the guy in the focus group who's loud and dominant.

We can argue that our opinions represent ten of the silent majority, but that's faith, not methodology.

Close down the forum? Outrageous - what else would we complainers do with our day? Take pictures, perhaps.
09-22-2016, 03:58 AM   #36
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
So basically we might as well close down the Pentax forum, and stop talking about Pentax camera products and what we like and don't like, and discussing what the products need.
There are many functions of a forum and even the most nonsense posts are tolerated, including wishlists of kids. No need to shut down anything. Some users just hope, the worthless nonsense wishlists are compiled in a separate trashcan instead of flooding threads with more valuable discussions.

QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
I think the days of IGNORING THE FORUM, are over.
Only if they are idiots and have no market research skill whatsoever.
Feel free to explain how to tell the noise on a forum from the actual data. They need to split the loud brats from those who buy stuff. Most forums are dominated by handful of loud brats who just happen to have much time to post zillions of claims and complaints but will never ever buy anything.
That is why the do (and have done recently) surveys.

QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Pentax has listened to its customers and brought out the K-1.
If you had read a little more in these forums, you'd know what gave them the trigger: Hint - not a forum.

QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Canon and Nikon are constantly being praised by its customers on forums because they listen to their customers and implement products and features their customers ask.
Hm. The claimed praises don't stop millions of customers running away from them each year. If Pentax was loosing as many customers as Canon and Nikon, it would have been wiped out already three years ago. Canon and Nikon are very, very bad examples.

QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Shutting down free speech, or customer feedback is corporate suicide.
It is not about free speech. It's about ignoring worthless and skillfree whining noise from a few irrelevant people.
Believe me, corporations do know very well, who they need to listen to.

QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
I certainly hope that Pentax won't listen to folks who advocate that customer feedback be ignored in favor of focus group research..
"Customer feedback" is something a customer gives to the manufacturer directly. Childish whining on a forum not run by that manufacturer has a lot to do with psychic and social specialties of the posters and does not primarily represent "customer feedback".

Whatever you have written directly to your manufacturers will be listened to.

Forums have other merits and benefits to manufacturers, but new product development market research is not a strength.
09-22-2016, 04:19 AM   #37
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I had thought to suggest this thread become a sticky, but that would obligate to be OP to maintain it forever. It's a nice thing the OP does the work and updates it every so often for the casual Forum readers.

The hard core among us should learn how to do Forum Post searches.
09-22-2016, 04:27 AM   #38
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Close down the forum? This is the most excellent site if you want to know about Pentax cameras. This is where I learned about the k-5II before jumping into Pentax. This is where I learned about Pentax's system, its advantages and disadvantages. That's why I'm with Pentax.

For Ricoh, this is where Pentax can get its users' wants and needs to develop products which are much awaited by everyone. This is where they get the feedback to improve future products as multi system users give feedback as to the strengths and weaknesses of Pentax versus other systems. This forum provides much data for marketing and research and development. This forum is live customer feedback.

09-22-2016, 01:47 PM - 3 Likes   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by totsmuyco Quote
. This forum provides much data for marketing and research and development.
Except there's no evidence they do this - signal/noise ratio is too low for any serious research.

There are virtually no Japanese members, either, when Pentax is chiefly a domestic brand compared to Canon and Nikon.

This is a "Gaijin" forum. 😀

I think any busy executive who sat down and looked at a rant by Uluru or a million squirrel references would simply close the laptop lid and make his way early to the next meeting.

Last edited by clackers; 09-22-2016 at 02:38 PM.
09-22-2016, 03:27 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Except there's no evidence they do this - signal/noise ratio is too low for any serious research.
There are virtually no Japanese members, either, when Pentax is chiefly a domestic brand compared to Canon and Nikon.
This is a "Gaijin" forum. ��
I think any busy executive who sat down and looked at a rant by Uluru or a million squirrel references would simply close the laptop lid and make his way early to the next meeting.

Yeah, "busy executives" must love corporate boot lickers and sitting in meetings. That's what makes them "busy" and always polished up. When "Gaijin" market shrinks even further, send them some flowers, with a note, "I always thought you guys are the best; now when I wish to see or try a new Pentax camera, I must fly to Japan. Great idea! I always wanted to see Mt Fuji.".

Last edited by Uluru; 09-22-2016 at 03:37 PM.
09-22-2016, 05:01 PM   #41
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Yeah, "busy executives" must love corporate boot lickers and sitting in meetings. That's what makes them "busy" and always polished up. When "Gaijin" market shrinks even further, send them some flowers, with a note, "I always thought you guys are the best; now when I wish to see or try a new Pentax camera, I must fly to Japan. Great idea! I always wanted to see Mt Fuji.".
Well, it's true executives may have little interest or talent in the industry that employs them. But I would want the best guy running a multinational fertilizer company, not an actual farmer.

These execs often may not be taking any pictures themselves, but they have data on Ricoh and their rivals you and I have no access to. :-)

09-22-2016, 07:00 PM   #42
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Like a rock sticking up in the middle of the desert.
09-23-2016, 01:10 AM - 2 Likes   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Internet whiners like us are a vocal minority, Zoolander ... sensible corporations ignore outliers in the data. I've been involved in market research, and you discard the guy in the focus group who's loud and dominant.
If this forum or other Pentax forums were irrelevant, then why did Beholder put up a whole bunch of quotes from the forum members who obtain insider information about whats coming from Pentax. If the forum were irrelevant then these two wouldn't bother with the biggest internet forum for Pentax.

The bottom line is that we live in a digital age. As soon as a product is released it gets reviewed by online sources and immediately there be customer feedback. Look at the Canon 5Div debacle. Online its been a flop, and if Canon isn't paying attention to the forums and youtube, then they would be off their rocker.

---------- Post added 09-23-16 at 06:20 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Only if they are idiots and have no market research skill whatsoever.
Feel free to explain how to tell the noise on a forum from the actual data. They need to split the loud brats from those who buy stuff. Most forums are dominated by handful of loud brats who just happen to have much time to post zillions of claims and complaints but will never ever buy anything.
That is why the do (and have done recently) surveys.
Pentax has their people on this site and they disseminate information about upcoming products - isn't that the premise of this thread. This forum does discuss the things which Pentaxians are after. There was a massive calling from this forum for a full frame camera - I mean you would have to be deaf if you didn't see that outcry for years. So .........The "Loud Brats" kept complaining and complaining and asking Adam and the others to ask Pentax whether they were making a full frame camera.

If Adam organized things and did some surveys periodically, the forum could channel this energy and he could deliver to the Pentax bigwigs what Pentaxians are after in the future interviews.

Primes and AF has been a large issue on this forum and in the youtube reviews, and it appears Pentax is listening and are working on improving those aspects - based on the quotes you yourself have posted.

---------- Post added 09-23-16 at 06:24 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
If you had read a little more in these forums, you'd know what gave them the trigger: Hint - not a forum.
Adam or some other dudes from this forum have interviewed the chiefs at Pentax in the past and have conveyed that Pentax users want a full frame. This IS the Pentax users forum - this is the BEST place to see customer feedback on products. Do you think that Pentax marketing - if it even exists - walks around the streets of Tokyo interviewing complete strangers who may or may not be a camera user. Pentax will talk to its photographers and its customer base.

---------- Post added 09-23-16 at 06:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Hm. The claimed praises don't stop millions of customers running away from them each year. If Pentax was loosing as many customers as Canon and Nikon, it would have been wiped out already three years ago. Canon and Nikon are very, very bad examples.
Now this is just arguing for the sake of arguing.

It is well established that Canikon have listened to its users. This is the cyber age, and camera users congregate in cyber space, and market research can simply sit on their butts in an office and get an idea about the product feedback.

When someone opens a restaurant, the first place they have to keep an eye on is the internet sites where people review and post comments on restaurants. Some folks even go to such an extent as to create fake profiles and post bogus positive comments about their own restaurant.

Dude, this is the cyber age.

---------- Post added 09-23-16 at 06:34 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
"Customer feedback" is something a customer gives to the manufacturer directly. Childish whining on a forum not run by that manufacturer has a lot to do with psychic and social specialties of the posters and does not primarily represent "customer feedback".

Whatever you have written directly to your manufacturers will be listened to.

Forums have other merits and benefits to manufacturers, but new product development market research is not a strength.
I currently work, but If I were to run a business, and a business that could improve its exposure on the internet, I would. If I could take a peek at any forum that discussed my products or services, I would periodically research whether there was positive or negative cyber-chat. People pick up their phones and search for a restaurant and see what others think of it .......its pretty common nowadays.

---------- Post added 09-23-16 at 06:39 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by totsmuyco Quote
For Ricoh, this is where Pentax can get its users' wants and needs to develop products which are much awaited by everyone. This is where they get the feedback to improve future products as multi system users give feedback as to the strengths and weaknesses of Pentax versus other systems. This forum provides much data for marketing and research and development. This forum is live customer feedback.
Yeah you're like me - the glass is half full kinda guy. As opposed to the - glass is half empty ......"ain't nothing going on here in this forum its a waste of time nobody from Pentax cares about Pentax Forums ........except when Pentax Forums goes to photokina or CP+ and interviews the CEO or Vice whatever of product development. Yeah pentax Forums is irrelevant.

---------- Post added 09-23-16 at 06:45 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Except there's no evidence they do this - signal/noise ratio is too low for any serious research.
They go to the product reviews - lets say the DA* 16-50mm 2.8 - and look at what people say about the lens. They take a note pad and jot down the users positive comments and negative comments. The main issue with that lens is the SDM which is apparently addressed. Next issue is the purple fringing - quality control.

Note Pad says: Fix the SDM motor. Improve quality control during element manufacturing, and improve testing the final product for defects.

You do not need the super computer "Deep Blue" and a team of programmers to develop an algorithm that scans Pentax forums or other forums to analyse Pentaxians. Just a notepad and pen.

---------- Post added 09-23-16 at 06:51 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Well, it's true executives may have little interest or talent in the industry that employs them. But I would want the best guy running a multinational fertilizer company, not an actual farmer.

These execs often may not be taking any pictures themselves, but they have data on Ricoh and their rivals you and I have no access to. :-)
Typically fertilizer companies are engaged in a dialogue with their farmer customers, and deliver products specific to various regions where soils have certain deficiencies. Same thing with crops with new hybrids - they actually collaborate with farmers. If you've ever driven past a corn field sometimes they'll have the specific breeds with signs posted from the manufacturer of the breeds.
09-24-2016, 02:22 PM   #44
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
Typically fertilizer companies are engaged in a dialogue with their farmer customers, and deliver products specific to various regions where soils have certain deficiencies. Same thing with crops with new hybrids - they actually collaborate with farmers. If you've ever driven past a corn field sometimes they'll have the specific breeds with signs posted from the manufacturer of the breeds.
??

With all due respect, @Zoolander, I think there's a certain amount of fantasy and wishful thinking in your essay. Good onya, anyway, your heart's always been in the right place!

A company needs to be *selective* about engagement. It can't listen to vocal, uninformed minorities. They will consult and research products in a reliable manner.

We have a (former) Pentax ambassador here on the forums who's hinted that Tokyo does not necessarily heed or even inform overseas Ricoh distributors.

They did not ask PF members to contribute to the building or test the K-1 ... they hired some Japanese pro photographers and used their own local employees to take snapshots.

Small groups of PF members for years have dominated discussions and agitated for mirrorless, mechanical stabilization of video, retro, class-leading AF, etc, and been bitterly disappointed again and again. So much for people who reckon these forums are full of Pentax fanboys ... it's actually been the home of many, many more dreary naysayers ... hence the 'Doomed' stereotype.

Did you read Adam's interview with the Ricoh Imaging chairman at Photokina?

That pretty much confirmed Pentax's transition to a premium brand. They will not be serious about consumer end marketshare grab attempts like the K-500 or store presence or mass marketing or whatever. Canon and Nikon are bleeding and can't make money with that model, how could a small company?

And it will mean a tendency for new lenses and bodies to be big dollar items, not bargains. A lot of forum members are price-sensitive and will be disappointed by that.

Last edited by clackers; 09-24-2016 at 02:36 PM.
09-24-2016, 02:50 PM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
....
Did you read Adam's interview with the Ricoh Imaging chairman at Photokina?

That pretty much confirmed Pentax's transition to a premium brand. They will not be serious about consumer end marketshare grab attempts like the K-500 or store presence or mass marketing or whatever. Canon and Nikon are bleeding and can't make money with that model, how could a small company?

And it will mean a tendency for new lenses and bodies to be big dollar items, not bargains. A lot of forum members are price-sensitive and will be disappointed by that.
The question I'm asking now, is how does the K-70 fit into that narrative?
It has a very reasonable price, as did the K-50 before it.

In fact, at other photo forums, when someone asked about a first camera purchase, and something like the Canon T6i would be mentioned, I knew I could always suggest the K-50, and research would show that the K-50 provided more camera for fewer bucks.
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