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09-23-2016, 04:55 AM   #241
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
I don't see any problem. 645Z body could be redesigned.

But what would it cost and how much time would it take?


QuoteQuote:
Hasselblad and Fuji have very compact lenses.


Yes Hasselblad an Fuji have lenses for mirrorless, but how much did it cost to design them? How compact are they really compared to 645z alternatives? The wide angle lenses would be more compact but beyond that the same story as with DSLR vs mirrorless goes.

09-23-2016, 05:06 AM   #242
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QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
And no any advantage of EVIL with K-mount. K-01 was the experiment and need to forget about it.
Have you seen how tiny the M series cameras really are, especially the ME? Looking at the pictures doesn't bring the point home; only handling them does that.

To make a DSLR the size of an ME would be difficult, and much as I want one, I acknowledge that. To make it mirrorless with an EVF would be far easier - and how's this idea for compactness: no back LCD, just tethering to your smartphone or tablet for post-shot review, and maybe even a clip-on grip option that would mount the smartphone to the back of the camera, for when size was not as important. Camera shoots in Raw and low-res JPG; low-res JPG automatically pushed through to the phone for catching obvious screw-ups in composition, colour balance and exposure; RAW or high-res JPG transfers on demand for detailed examination of pixel-peeping sharpness. Alternatively, put the phone in your top pocket, run a USB3 cable to the camera, and it will treat a designated folder on the phone as its second SD card. If you didn't have the phone handy or had it switched off, an on-demand EVF review is good enough for picking grossly overexposed, grossly underexposed, subject's head cut off, etc, and instant reshoot.

Something like this with an APS-C sensor would be the ideal platform for the DA Limited primes.
09-23-2016, 05:29 AM   #243
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The issue with 645Z is that the competition in 2017 is way more then in 2014. Everyone and their grandmother is offering a camera with the 50mp sensor from Sony. So designing the 100MP 645Z ii maybe is the right direction for Pentax.
09-23-2016, 05:36 AM   #244
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
It needs a complete redesign of the MF body. Larger sensor, larger shutter, larger mirror, larger mirrorbox, larger pentaprism. I am not sure if Ricoh can stomach that.
- Larger sensor: Doesnt need to be redesigned, Sony already did that.
- Larger shutter: Just use one of the shelf
- Larger mirror: Same
- Larger mirror box: 645N should be a good blueprint
- Larger pentaprism: Yes, just pick one from the 645N shelf

Redesigning the body isnt very expensive. They even redesign bodys for 500$ cameras quite often. Except from the sensor, none of the parts you mention are super expensive. Putting the parts together shouldn't be much more expensive then the 645D-645Z upgrade. Except from the sensor of course.

QuoteOriginally posted by edri Quote
If there is a new mirrorless it must be with a shorter register distance. Otherwise it makes no sense. Since the main mirrorless advantage is the portability it would be wise to choose a smaller sensor 1inch or 4/3.
Yes, if the goal is to increase the portability, both the register distance and sensor size should shrink. But its not strictly necessary to loose the mirror. Pentax Auto 110 uses a mirror and have the same sensor size as mFT. They managed to make that quite small despite the mirror. Anyway, I don't think the market is really moving towards portability (= small sensors) in the long run. I think APS-C K mount with compact lenses are a good low end for system cameras. Q are probably at its end. Pentax have more to loose by starting a brand new lens line up, then to gain in terms of size and competitiveness in the small system camera market.

09-23-2016, 05:47 AM   #245
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
- Larger sensor: Doesnt need to be redesigned, Sony already did that. - Larger shutter: Just use one of the shelf - Larger mirror: Same - Larger mirror box: 645N should be a good blueprint - Larger pentaprism: Yes, just pick one from the 645N shelf Redesigning the body isnt very expensive. They even redesign bodys for 500$ cameras quite often. Except from the sensor, none of the parts you mention are super expensive. Putting the parts together shouldn't be much more expensive then the 645D-645Z upgrade. Except from the sensor of course.
It is clear you are not the one that has to do the work. Ricoh has to make decisions. Is mirrorless the future for MF, must we then develop a new DSLR body that will be even less compact? Or do we jump in the deep and develop an entire new line of mirrorless? Or do we do both like Hasselblad?
09-23-2016, 05:58 AM   #246
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QuoteOriginally posted by pathdoc Quote
To make a DSLR the size of an ME would be difficult, and much as I want one, I acknowledge that. To make it mirrorless with an EVF would be far easier - and how's this idea for compactness: no back LCD, just tethering to your smartphone or tablet for post-shot review, and maybe even a clip-on grip option that would mount the smartphone to the back of the camera, for when size was not as important. Camera shoots in Raw and low-res JPG; low-res JPG automatically pushed through to the phone for catching obvious screw-ups in composition, colour balance and exposure; RAW or high-res JPG transfers on demand for detailed examination of pixel-peeping sharpness. Alternatively, put the phone in your top pocket, run a USB3 cable to the camera, and it will treat a designated folder on the phone as its second SD card. If you didn't have the phone handy or had it switched off, an on-demand EVF review is good enough for picking grossly overexposed, grossly underexposed, subject's head cut off, etc, and instant reshoot.

Something like this with an APS-C sensor would be the ideal platform for the DA Limited primes.
Basically what I think of as a K-02 without a screen. Have you seen how thin phone screens are? Ca 1 mm and that includes touch. I would not loose the screen for 1 mm of thickness. But I would love to have a high quality phone screen on a camera. Even a full HD phone screen has 6x the pixel count as the K-1 screen. OLEDs are even thinner and they have much better blacks and less color variance then any camera LCD.

QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The issue with 645Z is that the competition in 2017 is way more then in 2014. Everyone and their grandmother is offering a camera with the 50mp sensor from Sony. So designing the 100MP 645Z ii maybe is the right direction for Pentax.
Hasselblad launched their H6D in two flavours: One with 50 Mp in 44x33mm format, and the other with 100Mp in 56x42mm format. I think that may be the right way to go for Pentax too. A 645FF and a 645 crop. The two models sharing the same mount would work as APS-C and FF sharing K mount. The smaller one are the obvious starting point, and the larger one an upgrade path without the need to buy new lenses. Very convenient for those that plan ahead. Much of the camera body may be used for both models.
09-23-2016, 06:08 AM   #247
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
But what would it cost and how much time would it take?

Yes Hasselblad an Fuji have lenses for mirrorless, but how much did it cost to design them? How compact are they really compared to 645z alternatives? The wide angle lenses would be more compact but beyond that the same story as with DSLR vs mirrorless goes.
No. It's not too compact lenses. It was the question. I forget to put interrogation mark.
Pentax lenses cover 56*41.5 mm, could new lenses of Hassy and Fuji do the same?

Did you ever see 645 FA35/3.5? Or 75/2.8? Or 45/2.8 ? FA645 33-55/4.5?
It's compact lenses.
09-23-2016, 06:32 AM   #248
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How about that brand new 28-45 zoom? Does it cover full-frame 645? Or did they shoot their own leg here...

09-23-2016, 06:47 AM   #249
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They didn't shoot their leg with that one. Just as Pentax didn't shoot their leg when they made the DA 10-17mm for APS-C only. Giving those lenses a larger image circle would make it much heavier and more expensive, if they could make it at all. On full frame 645 the 33-55mm would do more or less the same job as the 28-45 does on crop 645.
09-23-2016, 07:21 AM   #250
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
- Larger sensor: Doesnt need to be redesigned, Sony already did that.
- Larger shutter: Just use one of the shelf
- Larger mirror: Same
- Larger mirror box: 645N should be a good blueprint
- Larger pentaprism: Yes, just pick one from the 645N shelf

Redesigning the body isnt very expensive. They even redesign bodys for 500$ cameras quite often. Except from the sensor, none of the parts you mention are super expensive. Putting the parts together shouldn't be much more expensive then the 645D-645Z upgrade. Except from the sensor of course.


Yes, if the goal is to increase the portability, both the register distance and sensor size should shrink. But its not strictly necessary to loose the mirror. Pentax Auto 110 uses a mirror and have the same sensor size as mFT. They managed to make that quite small despite the mirror. Anyway, I don't think the market is really moving towards portability (= small sensors) in the long run. I think APS-C K mount with compact lenses are a good low end for system cameras. Q are probably at its end. Pentax have more to loose by starting a brand new lens line up, then to gain in terms of size and competitiveness in the small system camera market.
You remind me of the president of the scanner engineering company I once worked for. Everything was easy to him. But:

1. Semiconductor sensors are thicker and bigger than film: that pushes the shutter toward the lens, intruding into the space required for the focusing screen and mirror box
2. Even if there is an off-the-shelf 645-size focal plane shutter, it's almost certainly a different shape which likely changes the mirror box design (the old 645N shutter is obsolete with a 1/60 sec synch speed)
3. The 645N had only a 3-point AF system: if that's not good enough, the new camera needs a redesigned secondary mirror and mirror reflex mechanism.
4. Is the 645N's 6-segment light meter competitive: if not, then parts of the prism need redesigning
5. Is the 645N's viewfinder information display competitive: if not, then parts of the prism need redesigning

Maybe the outward shape of the 645FF might look like the 645N but almost everything inside it will need to be designed from the ground up. That's especially true if the 645FF needs to offer competitive features in AF, metering, and OVF information displays.
09-23-2016, 07:30 AM   #251
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QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
They didn't shoot their leg with that one. Just as Pentax didn't shoot their leg when they made the DA 10-17mm for APS-C only. Giving those lenses a larger image circle would make it much heavier and more expensive, if they could make it at all. On full frame 645 the 33-55mm would do more or less the same job as the 28-45 does on crop 645.
MMkay, well, you pay $5000 for 28-45 and decide to upgrade to full-frame 645 Z2. Ooops, black corners. Dang! Then you mount some ancient 33-55mm zoom which does not have ample resolution for 100MP sensor. Fail?
09-23-2016, 07:43 AM   #252
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
MMkay, well, you pay $5000 for 28-45 and decide to upgrade to full-frame 645 Z2. Ooops, black corners. Dang! Then you mount some ancient 33-55mm zoom which does not have ample resolution for 100MP sensor. Fail?
Yes, BIG fail... if true.
Adding to the previous fail sequence DFA25/4 => DA25/4 => nil
09-23-2016, 07:50 AM   #253
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It means something to me as I have been looking for MF system for quite a while. And some day in the near future I should have enough savings for it. My choices are now Fuji and the Z. My primary lens with Pentax would be 28-45mm due to spectacular IQ I have noted. It is a punch in the face should it not cover larger image circle
09-23-2016, 08:06 AM   #254
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
It means something to me as I have been looking for MF system for quite a while. And some day in the near future I should have enough savings for it. My choices are now Fuji and the Z. My primary lens with Pentax would be 28-45mm due to spectacular IQ I have noted. It is a punch in the face should it not cover larger image circle
If the D FA645 28-45mm were to cover the full 645 image circle, which it does not, it would be equivalent, in terms of field of view, to a 17-28mm on a 24x36 camera. Quite an odd combination. As other have pointed out, covering the full 645 image circle would have made the lens much bigger and more expensive (as if you asked a 16-50mm f/2.8 to cover the 24x36 image circle and not only the APS-C format).
09-23-2016, 08:10 AM   #255
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJKoski Quote
It means something to me as I have been looking for MF system for quite a while. And some day in the near future I should have enough savings for it. My choices are now Fuji and the Z. My primary lens with Pentax would be 28-45mm due to spectacular IQ I have noted. It is a punch in the face should it not cover larger image circle
Then you're not going to like the Fuji GFX lenses which are almost certainly optimized the 645 crop frame image circle.
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