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10-06-2016, 04:23 AM   #466
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The point is: what is asahi man alluding to when he writes:
QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
K mount, yes or not.
This is not important, cause the direct use of single lens reflex lenses is not possible.
Same problem like all the other mirrorless.
I guess he will answer himself sooner or later .

10-06-2016, 04:56 AM   #467
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The point is: what is asahi man alluding to when he writes:


I guess he will answer himself sooner or later .
Direct use (ie without an adapter) of a (d)slr lens is not possible. Same as any mirrorless. (Except the K-01 and Sigma Quattro SD).
10-06-2016, 05:35 AM - 1 Like   #468
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Pentax could just make a KAFM specification for mirrorless.
And what does this mean?

To use the exact same mount but different register distance may just complicate things and make it difficult to design an optimized mirrorless system.
On mirrorless the mount will have to be larger in diameter than K-mount for best support on FF. As the rear lens element comes closer to the sensor the lens element might have to be larger than on DSLR lenses to avoid problems. Sony has problem with FE mount as it's just fit a FF sensor, and it would be even more difficult on K-mount as it has even smaller diameter. So "KAFM" mount may mean that the system is limited to APS-C sensors.

To fit screw drive motor and the mechanical aperture mechanism require extra space in the camera, and it would be crazy to have it in camera if all mirrorless lenses use lens AF motor and electrical aperture.

Last edited by Fogel70; 10-06-2016 at 05:46 AM.
10-06-2016, 05:57 AM   #469
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The K mount is even a tad too small (in diameter) for modern lenses and digital sensors. Remember that the most recent (24x36) SLR mounts have a much larger throat diameter:

- Canon EF: 54mm
- Contax N: 55mm

- Pentax K: 44mm.

A new 24x36 mirrorless lens mount would have a throat diameter closer to the one of the Leica L mount (51mm) than the one of the Sony E mount (46.1mm).


Last edited by Mistral75; 10-06-2016 at 06:02 AM.
10-06-2016, 06:30 AM   #470
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
And what does this mean?

To use the exact same mount but different register distance may just complicate things and make it difficult to design an optimized mirrorless system.
On mirrorless the mount will have to be larger in diameter than K-mount for best support on FF. As the rear lens element comes closer to the sensor the lens element might have to be larger than on DSLR lenses to avoid problems. Sony has problem with FE mount as it's just fit a FF sensor, and it would be even more difficult on K-mount as it has even smaller diameter. So "KAFM" mount may mean that the system is limited to APS-C sensors.

To fit screw drive motor and the mechanical aperture mechanism require extra space in the camera, and it would be crazy to have it in camera if all mirrorless lenses use lens AF motor and electrical aperture.
it's just hypothetical because the rumor speaks about k-mount and Asahi man says it will have the same problem all mirrorless have with slr lenses.

---------- Post added 06-10-16 at 15:33 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
The K mount is even a tad too small (in diameter) for modern lenses and digital sensors. Remember that the most recent (24x36) SLR mounts have a much larger throat diameter:

- Canon EF: 54mm
- Contax N: 55mm

- Pentax K: 44mm.

A new 24x36 mirrorless lens mount would have a throat diameter closer to the one of the Leica L mount (51mm) than the one of the Sony E mount (46.1mm).
Yeah we want that 85mm 1.2 and 100mm 1.4
10-06-2016, 06:50 AM   #471
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
And what does this mean?

To use the exact same mount but different register distance may just complicate things and make it difficult to design an optimized mirrorless system.
On mirrorless the mount will have to be larger in diameter than K-mount for best support on FF. As the rear lens element comes closer to the sensor the lens element might have to be larger than on DSLR lenses to avoid problems. Sony has problem with FE mount as it's just fit a FF sensor, and it would be even more difficult on K-mount as it has even smaller diameter. So "KAFM" mount may mean that the system is limited to APS-C sensors.
+1.
I remember one of the interviews, in which Ricoh stated - hypothetically speaking - that if they would be doing a mirrorless system, they would want it to have a larger diameter mount.
10-06-2016, 07:21 AM   #472
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I'm not sure what Asahiman was saying, but I imagine he was equating mirrorless with a shorter mount-sensor distance.
Thats my assumption too.

I think the K-01 is a very good concept, just with a little awkward design.. Honestly, its a little too brick-shaped. I think a new shape and design may mask the thickness very well. A deep indent between the grip and "mirror" house would make it better to hold and give an impression that the main body thickness are slimmer then it really is. Some of the thickness may also be masked as an extension ring, just like Sony do with their A7 (the red ring). But with K-02 it might be a bit longer.

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Another visual trick is to have a light colored band (silver?), lets say 2 cm of the camera thickness, around the camera (top, bottom and sides). The whole back side may be in black design and protrude to the back side from the silver band by for instance 5mm. The grip front may be sticking 2-3 cm out from the silver band "body". This way the 2 cm silver band will bee seen visually as the camera body, while the screen, camera mount and grip are visually other parts then the main body. I wish I could make 3D drawings, but I hope you understand what I mean.

From the top, something like this, but with longer grip and mount barrel.
Attachment 327906

Last edited by Simen1; 10-06-2016 at 07:49 AM.
10-06-2016, 07:22 AM   #473
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
+1.
I remember one of the interviews, in which Ricoh stated - hypothetically speaking - that if they would be doing a mirrorless system, they would want it to have a larger diameter mount.
It's the well-known dilemma with pros and cons on both sides:

- reuse K mount. Advantage: all existing K-mount lenses can be directly used (sometimes with some restrictions). Drawbacks: thicker body (or 'long nose' ą la Sigma SD Quattro).

- use a new, short-registered mount. Advantages: thinner body + possibility to set up a 'state-of-the-art' lens mount (larger throat, all-electric coupling and more). Drawbacks: necessity to develop a new series of lenses; K-mount lenses only usable with adapter with potential restrictions.

10-06-2016, 07:40 AM   #474
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Yes, but there's a difference:
- option A's drawback is permanent (or long-term, if you wish); they would fight with it as long as that system is maintained
- option B's drawback is temporary (or short-term); worst in the beginning, lessening as they're launching new lenses. Adapters would alleviate the issue somewhat (but can't replace new lenses).

With enough resources, I'd go with B.
10-06-2016, 07:43 AM   #475
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Yes, something like Sigma DP Quattro, just with a little more elegance please, and the color scheme I suggested above here. I think visual attractiveness are more important for sales then engineers like me would like to believe. Rational engineers prefer functionality before make up, right? Still product design is a huge business even on technical tools like cameras.

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Last edited by Simen1; 10-06-2016 at 08:02 AM.
10-06-2016, 07:50 AM   #476
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Yes, but there's a difference:
- option A's drawback is permanent (or long-term, if you wish); they would fight with it as long as that system is maintained
- option B's drawback is temporary (or short-term); worst in the beginning, lessening as they're launching new lenses. Adapters would alleviate the issue somewhat (but can't replace new lenses).

With enough resources, I'd go with B.
With limited resources, you'd go with option A, test the waters and, if the market's answer is deemed satisfactory (or totally unsatisfactory because of the limitations of option A), you still have the possibility to shift to option B in due course.

In the meantime, Sony announced today their APS-C mirrorless flagship, Alpha 6500:

α6500 Premium E-mount APS-C Camera | ILCE-6500 | Sony US
10-06-2016, 08:21 AM   #477
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Resources are always limited, though; they were limited even for Sony, when they launched the NEX.

Shifting to option B is the idea I like the least (unless we're talking about yet another K-01, with no impact whatsoever on the development of product lines). It shows lack of a strategy, lack of commitment, and postponing the inevitable. And you'd start from scratch anyway, just few years too late.
10-06-2016, 09:22 AM   #478
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
If this rumor is to be believed, a future mirrorless camera would be likely to retain the K-mount, but have classic styling.

More on the rumored Pentax mirrorless camera | Pentax Rumors

This is one I want to believe (not saying I do, because it's very vague). Such a retro camera would compete well against the Fuji retro cameras, and it would already have a ton of relatively small current and legacy lenses available.



I made this a couple years ago.
10-06-2016, 09:41 AM   #479
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What I just don't understand is why use a DSLR mount, and then remove all the major advantages that a long register distance mount bring?
10-06-2016, 10:00 AM   #480
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Because people needs another "K-01" to complain about?
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