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09-19-2016, 02:25 AM   #76
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Regardless of how believable this particular rumour is, and it looks a bit dubious to me, there are a few well-worn objections to mirrorless being mentioned here that I would disagree with.

When you put an f2.8 zoom or an F1.4 prime on a mirrorless camera, it's almost as big as a DSLR
Well don't! If you stop trying to make mirrorless cameras emulate DSLRs by putting 'equivalent' lenses on them, you can realise the size advantage. There is a lot of value in a smaller system with slower lenses, and you only have to look at Pentax's DA Limiteds or the GR to see that. The reason that Olympus, Fujifilm and Sony are making such enormous wide aperture lenses is that they have left the DSLR market. So they are trying to make their systems all things to all photographers. Ricoh does't need to be like that, because they have K-mount and 645 for those purposes. Small high-quality primes could be the objective, which is where the word 'vintage' might come in.

Ricoh doesn't have enough resources to support another system
When you look at it, Ricoh/Pentax are not making all that many cameras compared to what they did historically. In a way, they are two systems 'down', since the GXR is out of production and the Q probably is as well. In terms of technology, they have technology from the Q, K-01, K-70 and GXR to use. The latter is interesting because they had APS-C format lenses, and probably more that were in planning. I think it is more a case of putting existing technologies together in the right way and having the courage to give it the green light. Remember that the GXR was made in Shenzhen in China, not Cebu. As far as I can see, only the Theta S, the GR and the G800 are currently produced there but they have a history of producing much more. Ultimately, Ricoh is a company with considerable resources, and if they want to plan for a broader line-up, they can do so. They also have the option of working with third parties, which we know they do already in a some areas (lenses, compacts).

Ricoh is too late and can't bring anything new to mirrorless at this stage
This is exactly the same argument as with Full Frame - Pentax was very late there. There are other full frame systems, but people wanted a Pentax one because they like the unique functionality and abilities of Pentax cameras. The same would apply to a mirrorless system. Specifically, I'm talking about features like pixel shift, AA simulator, hyper program, Astrotracer, WR on most of the system, and many more. I can't be the only one who looks at the other mirrorless systems and doesn't find any of them appealing, because they lack the features I am used to with Pentax.

09-19-2016, 02:32 AM   #77
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Afaik only Sony and Leica have a full frame mirrorless. So too late?
On a mirrorless it is possible to make more compact wide angle lenses. F1.4 lenses will be big on any system unless the focal length is near the flange focal distance. Built in AF motors make modern lenses bigger anyway. Maybe Pentax could make a mirrorless that will AF with manual lenses (by moving the sensor array back an forth). That would be cool.
09-19-2016, 02:34 AM   #78
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QuoteOriginally posted by 6BQ5 Quote
Why not a new mount, especially with an adapter? There is plenty of precedence for it. Imagine a 1" sensor with a line of lenses based on current FF offerings but scaled down in size. Q mount lens can be used with an adapter with the camera set to "Crop" mode.

Or, let's dream real big here : Ricoh reenters the mirrorless market with their own u4/3 body! This could make sense. They will join an ecosystem stuffed with lenses. They could still source a custom sensor from Sony have their usual ergonomics, user friendly menus, etc. A body like that will sell!
That would be wonderful!!
09-19-2016, 02:47 AM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by MJSfoto1956 Quote
I know it is a longshot, but the fastest way to market would be to introduce a "mirrorless" crop-sensor body with a built-in tilt/shift mechanism with KAF4 electrical contacts. Obviously given the tilt/shift, there would be no motor drive for AF. This would allow them to keep the K-mount pretty much "as is" and with the right lens gives you tilt/shift for free. This would be a great addition to their current system, providing a unique value proposition without having to re-engineer the whole shooting works. If the ergonomics for said tilt/shift mechanism were superb (perhaps even servo driven?), you might even get some of the LensBaby crowd to move over.

M
I agree that it's a long shot, which is a pity, because the concept is reviving the idea of the venerable rising-front large format film cameras that have great use over a long period of time. You could, of course, put the AF motor in the lens-mount section of the tilt-shift assembly. It would bias the weight forward, but probably no more than in the current DSLR bodies, and probably less than the tilt-shift mechanism itself.

09-19-2016, 02:58 AM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
You might be certain, but you are wrong:

1. Improve DSLR with mirrorless ideas - Entering the large sensor MILC market can and should be done without giving up on DSLRs. "Killing a historic mount"? Nonsense, did Canon kill the EF mount?
Besides, there aren't many "mirrorless ideas", can't put an EVF (but perhaps add more information into the optical viewfinder e.g. via LCD overlay), and the live view mode is improving as new sensors are available. Instead, I would say they should advance DSLR specific stuff - the optical viewfinder and the autofocus system. Enough resources reserved, and they can do it even with a MILC in their lineup.

2. Join existing mirrorless deal - First, such a deal would have to be an option - does Leica want others to make cheaper L-mount cameras and lenses? Second, it would have to be desirable for Pentax - would they like playing second fiddle to Leica?
I don't think that's such a great idea.

3. Fixed lens mirrorless - Those "new vintage cameras" most likely don't exist, thus they don't have to be anything.
Simultaneously launching two fixed lens cameras under the Pentax brand, APS-C (killing the GR?) and FF, are you paying attention to what Ricoh Imaging is doing? They don't take such stupidly huge risks. If they would do it, one camera at first, to see how it sells.
And individual cameras can't replace a system.

Let's give Ricoh Imaging more credit than that
I was analysing weird possibilities even within proposed ridiculous scenarios. In short, to clarify my stand:

1. I don't agree with the new mirrorless mount idea.

2. EVF overlay is possible in the DSLR. Variable semi-transparent mirror too, to narrow the gap between the purely mirrorless and purely DSLR worlds. CDAF and proper PDAF. With such techs inside a DSLR, ultra short flange distance loses all relevance. DSLR has an advantage here, by historic design.
To me, Pentax wins, all others lose and learn a valuable lesson. We have the camera that has best of both worlds.

3. FF mirrorless fixed lens camera, with attached (not retracting) lens, is no contender against the GR. GR has to be like it is; retracting lens, small, pocketable, etc. But a 35mm mirrorless FF camera with a (smallish) 40/2 lens on it, can be quite an interesting addition to the line that may be purchased — by anyone.

Let it have a pixel shift tech, 36MP, SR, etc. and it may become a fixed lens camera to people who have other systems, or Pentax. That camera can be a serious Trojan horse. Otherwise, luring anyone into the Pentax FF system just like that, to 'switch' or to consider Pentax purely on its K-mount legacy … it is a difficult job.

Other problem is the size of an FF DSLR. It is no vacation camera! K-1 alone is above 1kg of weight! Basic Pentax APS-C DSLR alone is now close to 700g with a battery! But a serious FF fixed lens mirrorless camera can be made at ~640 grams — the whole package.

Such a camera is the entry ticket into the FF world. Light, efficient, and let it cost like the K-1 alone. But at half the weight of a K-1 together with a lens, to many folks it will be the FF Pentax to go.

That is why I think it is a good idea.

PS. If not Pentax, then there is a fair chance Nikon will come with the same or similar fixed lens concept. Rumour is that Nikon Europe has announced a "pretty exciting mirrorless news". I doubt they would scream aloud about a new N1 camera.

Last edited by Uluru; 09-19-2016 at 03:33 AM.
09-19-2016, 05:34 AM   #81
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for years we in the US have heard about the 'DC bubble': how politicians exist in their own world oblivious to the concerns of the majority. or the 'NYC bubble': financial institutions oblivious to their willingness to put the country at risk in a singleminded search for profit. etc etc.

it never ceases to amaze me how this 'bubble' effect can be found on virtually every forum, the prevailing thought being 'we like this system, so how can (fill in the blank) manufacturer want to change anything'? they simply cant! it doesnt make sense! it would be 'un-pure' and alienate their base!

cmon folks! i really like my pentax gear. cameras lenses, all first rate. sure i have complaints, but nothings perfect. however, by pretty much any economic (not personal taste!) measure pentax is what, sixth in a five horse race? personal feelings aside, there is no valid non 'bubble' argument for 'staying the course'. if you really love you your pentax gear, get behind whatever the heck they come up with to change the status quo, which again is not tenable in either the pro or consumer markets. doing nothing is 'bubble' thought.

and while we're on 'bubble' thought, mirrored camera afficianados belong to another such group. i like 'em myself, but personal taste is not relevant to economic reality. the problem in that 'bubble' is not getting faster autofocus or some such thing, its the limitations of the engineering, the inflexibility of ovf only, the unwieldy-ness. its about flexibility, and mirrored has maxed out. yes, it will continue to have a place in the pro market--until, like the dinosaurs (and film!)--it doesnt. the only crazy strategy pentax can come up with is doing nothing or tinkering about the edges while the world changes around them.

Last edited by rbelyell; 09-19-2016 at 05:47 AM.
09-19-2016, 06:12 AM - 3 Likes   #82
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There is a rumour about Ricoh announcing APS-C and 24x36 mirrorless, Pentax-branded cameras in the first quarter of 2017, people whine.

Should Ricoh only announce Theta Delta and firmware 1.30 for K-1 at Photokina, people will whine even more.

Go figure...
09-19-2016, 07:09 AM - 1 Like   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
There is a rumour about Ricoh announcing APS-C and 24x36 mirrorless, Pentax-branded cameras in the first quarter of 2017, people whine.

Should Ricoh only announce Theta Delta and firmware 1.30 for K-1 at Photokina, people will whine even more.

Go figure...
And a good possibility that people here will whine if others are not whining.

09-19-2016, 07:18 AM - 1 Like   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
There is a rumour about Ricoh announcing APS-C and 24x36 mirrorless, Pentax-branded cameras in the first quarter of 2017, people whine.

Should Ricoh only announce Theta Delta and firmware 1.30 for K-1 at Photokina, people will whine even more.

Go figure...
Imagine the whining when people would realize the rumor was fake - no multiple vintage mirrorless whatever - after Ricoh announced only some Theta and a new K-1 firmware at Photokina
(I'm not saying that's all for this Photokina, by the way. It's a "what if..." scenario ).
09-19-2016, 07:25 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Imagine the whining when people would realize the rumor was fake - no multiple vintage mirrorless whatever - after Ricoh announced only some Theta and a new K-1 firmware at Photokina
(I'm not saying that's all for this Photokina, by the way. It's a "what if..." scenario ).
Don't even think about it!
09-19-2016, 07:39 AM   #86
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Too late

Anyway, a new K-1 firmware sounds neat
09-19-2016, 07:55 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
There is a rumour about Ricoh announcing APS-C and 24x36 mirrorless, Pentax-branded cameras in the first quarter of 2017, people whine.

Should Ricoh only announce Theta Delta and firmware 1.30 for K-1 at Photokina, people will whine even more.

Go figure...
dulled indifference is normal state
09-19-2016, 07:56 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by rbelyell Quote
i am very confused by this POV. what do you consider fuji mirrorless hardware? its all 'retro analogue' handling. almost all their digital lenses have aperture rings. some dont. they can all be used in auto aperture, like dslr. and while the nikon Df does remain kind of a niche product, it has been widely praised for its execution and 'backward' compatibility, as well as ability to fully take advantage of their FF digi lenses. maybe i'm missing something, so if i am, i apologize.
The problem with most of these digital cameras is that they are not all "retro analogue", but have dual interface, so you sometimes have to switch to modern control whether you like it or not.
The only manufacturer that has come close to design an "all analogue" camera is Leica with their M-series (especially those without LCD).

A lot of Nikon Df users seems to have stopped using the "retro analogue" interface and gone over to all "modern digital" interface instead.

Maybe Ricoh can solve this and create a simplified interface and create something that truly feels like and old all mechanical SLR, but I doubt they will do as this might be too niche.
There is a risk that the interface become overly complicated like most other retro digital cameras.
09-19-2016, 08:05 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Join existing mirrorless deal
On the other hand, if they really need to join the mirrorless systems, I would rather see Pentax joining hands with a current solid mirrorless solution, say that from Leica.
Ricoh has been there, done that:

GXR / Digital Cameras | RICOH IMAGING

Now all they have left is the T-shirt:

09-19-2016, 08:36 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What is the point of a shorter flange? A thinner body?
I agree but if the market goes there, Ricoh will too, whatever they may think about it.
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