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09-25-2016, 03:30 PM   #271
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QuoteOriginally posted by lukulele Quote
If Denver and employees are no longer, where is distribution in the US and is it wholly owned by Ricoh or a separate entity?
According to what I've heard, they have literally gone downhill all the way,
from Golden, to Denver, to a Ricoh location on the east coast.

09-25-2016, 03:34 PM   #272
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
According to what I've heard, they have literally gone downhill all the way,
from Golden, to Denver, to a Ricoh location on the east coast.
Bottom?
09-25-2016, 03:38 PM   #273
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Wow, such a depressing thread!
Well, we may be witnessing the demise of the only current camera system that is unique to Pentax.
I find that depressing. YMMV.
09-25-2016, 03:46 PM   #274
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
FAIL. Again.
You cannot compare Fujifilm's aggressive "APS-C is the optimal choice, period" approach with Pentax' "we don't have FF... for now". ..
Third, Jim Malcolm no longer works at Ricoh Imaging, so he's no longer your enemy. Let him be.
Fail? For stating all this time, since he opened his mouth in 2011, that guy was full of hot air and now, of course, as a result of his 'genius', he is gone? I am sorry, but his tirades are proven all wrong. It was not him that ever said "we don't have FF .. for now" .. nor anybody from the Ricoh Imaging ever stated that; only vague and more humble sentences came in prior to FF development announcement. So I am not sure of what are writing about.

He was not my enemy, but he was not a very bright bulb. He showed all traits of arrogance and ignorance at first, to say at least. Compared to him Ned B. was a genius. So, yes, I hope he learned a bit of wisdom meanwhile. Good luck Jim if you read this.

As for Fujifilm's choice, yes, the APS-C is the top-sized sensor size for performance vs bulk for a mirrorless consumer system. Lenses can be relatively small, imaging performance at the level of best crop DSLRs. So that is a good choice. APS-C was not a random choice of the imaging industry way back in late 1990s — there are reasons for it and Fujifilm just reiterates what industry stated long ago. And that is why crop Pentax DSLRs are equally good with their crop lenses. And I also always stressed that Pentax indeed should focus on delivering top quality crop DSLRs and lenses because even in a DSLR world, the crop represents best price vs necessary bulk vs performance choice.

MF is a different imaging story, though, it will never be mainstream in the camera world; any a priori proposition there, whether Fuji made 'a mistake' or did 'Pentax made a mistake' or did 'Leica made a mistake' or did 'Hassy made a mistake with X1D', for not going XYZ size sensor .. is not validated by anything other than personal bias and a pinch of insolent behaviour.


Last edited by Uluru; 09-25-2016 at 04:00 PM.
09-25-2016, 04:02 PM - 1 Like   #275
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QuoteOriginally posted by ffking Quote
wise words - as always
Thanks!

The photography market is not one big game to be won or lost by big gamechangers. It's many many little games segmented on dimensions such as: genre (sports, landscape, portrait, etc.), expertise (novice, DIY, rich-hobbiyest, money-making pro, etc.), psychology (herd-followers, iconoclasts, conspicuous consumers), personal preference (physical camera size, OVF/EVF, stills/video, AF/MF, focal length), and historical accidents (formats and accumulated equipment in a brand). Sure, all these submarkets overlap with many models of cameras being potentially usable by many types of photographers but there's always very good rationale for many different camera models even if they can't beat every other camera on all performance dimensions.

It used to be that companies had to cater to mass markets to gain a foothold on retailers' limited shelf space. Niche products didn't sell enough in all the brick-and-mortar shops and collected dust. But the internet really changes that -- the shelf space is unlimited and its much much easier for niche makers to find niche consumers. Today, a company can make a product that causes 99.9% of consumers to say "no, I don't want that." But now that there's 2 billion middle class consumers in the world (and 3 billion on the internet), that almost universally shunned product that only appeals to a tiny 0.1% will sell 2 million units. With careful design and cost control, a company can be quite successful selling 2 million units of something.

While the big fish fight to win big markets and overinvest to maintain their bloated big fish bodies, smaller fish can cater to more specialized needs or offer something different. They don't have to "win" they only need to know how to play the new game.
09-25-2016, 04:33 PM - 3 Likes   #276
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https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/321561-sigma-85mm-f...ml#post3783018

Tomorrow I will give all the news of the Photokina I've got.
No number of sales or anything else like that,but some maybe interesting stuff about the situation about K-1 and K-? and the current sensor problem and lens situation.
Best regards

Last edited by asahi man; 09-25-2016 at 04:39 PM.
09-25-2016, 04:33 PM   #277
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Well, we may be witnessing the demise of the only current camera system that is unique to Pentax.
I find that depressing. YMMV.
I don't really buy it. Ricoh has invested a lot in Pentax and the idea that they are just going to pitch it to the way side is ridiculous. At the same time, they may be giving up on the United States and sell mostly online and through a few large outlets who generate large sales. But the K mount is clearly not going away any time soon.
09-25-2016, 04:37 PM   #278
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@Uluru:
If I want to see "hot air", I'd be looking for armchair experts pretending they know better, and always insulting those who actually do the job. People like Zvonimir Tosic, Triplet Perar, Uluru...

"Performance vs bulk" is Fujifilm's marketing excuse, but it doesn't stand - the truth is, they don't have a choice. Which takes us back to their aggressive anti-FF marketing.

---------- Post added 26-09-16 at 02:39 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Well, we may be witnessing the demise of the only current camera system that is unique to Pentax.
I find that depressing. YMMV.
What camera system would be that? Q? Because it makes no sense to think that way about Pentax K.

09-25-2016, 04:41 PM   #279
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
Well, we may be witnessing the demise of the only current camera system that is unique to Pentax.
I find that depressing. YMMV.
I guess the meaning of these words depends heavily on how you read them and how you interpret particular words - worse than trying to figure out what a politician just said - If you listen to Pentax, they have three current camera systems: MF, K-mount, Q-mount. I'm not quite sure how you would define"unique to Pentax", but the system that comes closest to making sense in this context is the Q-mount. Is that what you mean??
09-25-2016, 04:50 PM   #280
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The whole APS-C versus full frame thing is a tough thing when your brand doesn't make a camera with a 35mm sensor and none of the lenses would be compatible with one either. To me, the whole question was primarily one of cost -- that is to say APS-C was a lot cheaper than full frame for a very long time. Things are shifting fairly rapidly and full frame cameras have come down in price. Now, APS-C cameras have too and you can get an awful lot of camera these days for the price. But when cameras like the XT-1 and X Pro 2 are selling for prices very close to where the K-1 retails for, the arguments feel a little weak.

Sure, Fuji's cameras are a little smaller (mostly thinner), but all of these cameras will require a dedicated bag, particularly once you factor in lenses.
09-25-2016, 04:51 PM   #281
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
they only need to know how to play the new game.
Yes, they are playing a smart game because they make the rules...."premium" level cameras aimed at photography, as opposed to videography.
09-25-2016, 05:17 PM   #282
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I agree with that, of course. Let's suppose Ricoh Imaging Japan clears $200 / unit x 84,000 units a year (for three years). They're not building inventory, rather they're selling into order flow, so there is no inventory investment. That means - at least for now - the K-1 yields about $16,800,000 Cash Flow per year for product development.
That is assuming that all profits Ricoh makes through the K-1 are reinvested into development. But the purpose of a private company is to generate profits for owners/shareholders. I'd be surprised if Ricoh poured every Yen they make into further development.

In general it seems almost impossible to estimate how much money Ricoh Imaging is making with the K-1. We do not know how large the profit is per unit, but based on the long development process (the company's first full frame rather than just another iteration like for Canon or Nikon) and the very low retail price it cannot be a lot. We do not know how many units they are selling, and whether low stock in many countries is mainly due to high demand, or due to shortages in Sony sensors, or (most likely) both. We also do not know how many full frame lenses they are selling, whether a lot of people are indulging and jumping on D FA* 70-200s and D FA 15-30s or whether most are being stingy and keeping to their legacy lenses.

For us as customers it is incredibly difficult to get an idea of what is going on behind the scenes, particularly with a Japanese company which are known for their secrecy.

I think pretty much the only bits and pieces we know are:

a) Ricoh Imaging is selling more K-1s than expected (based on the recent PF interview).

b) Ricoh Imaging greatly increased their profits over the last financial year.

Financial results FY2017/03:

"Sales in the Other segment increased by 6.7% as compared to the previous corresponding period, to 28.4 billion due to the increase in income and profit in the Camera business and Leasing business. As a result, operating profit in the Other segment increased by 292.6% as compared to the previous corresponding period, to 1.5 billion."

I believe they cited the Theta and K-1 somewhere.

As far as I'm aware that's all we know.

Last edited by FantasticMrFox; 09-25-2016 at 05:26 PM.
09-25-2016, 06:47 PM   #283
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The generally accepted premise is Ricoh is intentionally allowing Imaging to grow by reinvesting its cash flow.

That was the apparent investment banking advice at the time the bankers' study determined direct and immediate competition with CaNikon (high volume / low margin business model) would require a $1.4 Billion capital investment and many years of losses significant enough to reduce parent company earnings. Ricoh also correctly foresaw the dramatic drop in dSLR sales beginning 4q2013 and chose a low volume / high margin strategy, avoiding much of the industry's current distress.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-25-2016 at 07:01 PM.
09-25-2016, 07:21 PM   #284
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I'm not quite sure how you would define"unique to Pentax", but the system that comes closest to making sense in this context is the Q-mount. Is that what you mean??
Of course.

If you want MF, FF, or APS-C systems, you can get them elsewhere.

If you want high-quality, interchangeable lenses on a 1/1.7"-range sensor,
the Q system is the only option.
09-25-2016, 09:58 PM   #285
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The 53.7 x 40.4 645 sensor that is used by Phase One is 3x the price. A Pentax 645 with that sensor is going to be +/- $16,000. The Phase One camera is $50,000.
That may all be true but would you have been able to predict the price of the 645D when introduced?
It undercut every competitor by a big margin and I'm sure Pentax still made a big profit on every camera sold.

A similar upset could occur in the future and if it does not happen in a radical move then surely, over time, larger sensors will become more affordable.

Currently a full-frame 645D may not be in the same market segment as the Fuji GFX (who knows what Fuji will sell it for, though?), but as the price of a full-frame 645D comes down it will either join the Fuji GFX in the same segment, or the GFX will be pushed to lower margin shores.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
No more than Ricoh has limited its potential by using K-mount. Its all relative. People said the same thing about X-mount since it is specific to APS-C, but Fuji has been very, very successful with the "limited" X-mount.
I'm sure you will agree that the level of success Fuji has enjoyed with their X-mount is not primarily based on limiting the mount size. They have been riding the retro train and enlisted (or attracted) the services of many internet celebrities. Remember that you can have small lenses with bigger mounts. BTW, the X-mount has a 44mm diameter. That's bigger than the K-mount's diameter (42mm). Apparently, the shorter registration distance of the X-mount demands bigger throats even for a smaller image circle.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Who said they are after FF DSLR customers? Fuji is selling this to people looking to get into MF or people who are tired of paying 2-3x the price for Phase One and Hassy products.
When I said "leaving the well-cared for FF market", I did not literally mean dropping one's FF equipment. I meant "not consider the well-cared for FF market". Sorry for the misleading phrasing.

Fuji may be targeting MF photographers but how can they do it with a straight face when their version of "MF" offers less advantage over FF than FF offers over APS-C and Fuji has been very clear about that FF is not worth having if you can have APS-C?

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Fuji is going to sell a lot of these cameras.
That could well be the case (I don't know) but if your information about the mount size is correct, I'm certain that they closed themselves a door for selling a lot of these camera in the more distant future. I think the GFX format is an unfortunate format that does not give a big boost over FF which is well-established with a lot of alternatives to choose from and has a lot of support in terms of lenses and professional service networks. Don't you think the GFX format will receive pressure from both FF (there will no doubt be advances) and real MF (bigger sensors which will become more affordable)? It may look good now, but won't it be a "pocket "MF" " (yes, I'm using double quotes because I don't think this downsized format deserves to be called MF*)) product in the future?

(*) Yes, I know anything between 36x24 and "large format" can perhaps be referred to as "medium format" but all the common MF film formats were quite a bit bigger than 43.8 x 32.9, weren't they?
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