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09-28-2016, 06:53 AM   #361
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I do think Ricoh this year made a mistake by not showing anything about the lenses in development. They need to convince people that those lenses are on the way, because they are fighting the perception that they have gaps in the line-up. Even if they had just added the focal lengths and max. apertures, it would have been something.
Well, I guess Ricoh learned from the experience of announcing the DFA*70-200/2.8 at photokina 2014 which was delayed quite a few times before being finally available in March of this year.

09-28-2016, 07:06 AM   #362
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
There's no "gotta be a Sony sensor" fixation; Sony sensors are 1. available and 2. very, very good.
If using a Samsung sensor would give Pentax an advantage, I guess we'd all be fine with that. But, as it is, what you're asking them to do is to pay Samsung to restart production for their APS-C sensor, in very low volume (thus, higher costs) as they'd only be used by Pentax. Then, they would have to pay Samsung to further develop the sensors, so they won't lose ground to Sony (and even Canon).
OR they can risk not selling flagship cameras for long stretches when a natural disaster strikes. This affects bottom line as well as reduces the brand name if FF seekers go to the competition due availability.

As for cost Pentax and Samsung have worked together before due to limited mount compatibility. Samsung could offer lower pricing in exchange for licensending to use same sensor if they choose to release another camera line in future.

Then Pentax will have 3 parts sources...

After all LG will simply copy and offer the same sensor (joking).

Imagine what would happen if Sony thought the secret to sell more Sony cameras and still get sensor supply money was to stop selling to anyone other than the top three camera producers...
09-28-2016, 07:17 AM   #363
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Sensors are not plug-in replacements, though - they can't just take out the Sony sensor and put a Samsung sensor inside. There's a very delicate tuning involved, a lengthy process which could take longer than Sony recovering their sensor production to nominal levels.
So... what should they risk, a possible disaster affecting Sony, or a possible disaster affecting Samsung?
09-28-2016, 07:20 AM   #364
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Wow, thanks for this extensive report, Asahi Man

QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
Than there is the developers roadmap,it's different to the public roadmap.
Public roadmap inserts the ready and clear projects,currently in production.
No fiction,full reality.
In production or pre production,but in direct line to the market and sale.
Well, the APS-C UWA zoom has been sitting on the public roadmap for four years, but it's still not visible on the horizon. So I take this with a pinch of salt. You don't happen to know anything about that lens?

QuoteQuote:
At last,the numbers of sales are much better than the years before and Pentax is the only company with a little increase in dslr!
That is very encouraging to hear, and it matches their recent financial reports that mention vastly increased profits in the 'Other' segment, partly due to the consumer imaging division.

09-28-2016, 07:25 AM   #365
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I do think Ricoh this year made a mistake by not showing anything about the lenses in development. They need to convince people that those lenses are on the way, because they are fighting the perception that they have gaps in the line-up. Even if they had just added the focal lengths and max. apertures, it would have been something.
Exactly - even though they received a lot of ridicule, the online teaser and 3D printed K-1 mock-up really got people talking and filled the long wait until the real announcement. These new D FA primes are eagerly anticipated, and I think they would have been wise to at least put together a visually appealing teaser.

Something like Tamron and Saymang did - a bit more of the lens body visible than in the Tamron image, but with the same visual quality, not as cheap as the Samyang image:



09-28-2016, 07:42 AM   #366
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A pity to hear from asahi man's post that a shortage of sensors was slowing down K-1 production and availability. Sounds like it is taking Sony longer than expected to bring their sensor fab 100% online.

Since some Pentax competitors like Nikon (eg the D810) also use Sony sensors, I guess they are feeling the same pain.
09-28-2016, 07:42 AM - 1 Like   #367
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
A new sensor is step one. There isn't at the moment from Sony. Still problems from the quake in april. So if Sony is releasing a new camera (a6500 maybe) with a new sensor at cp+ and still wants a six month exclusively use of the sensor.........then Pentax can use that in a new Hi end aps-cbody in say.........september 2017. Enough time to develop some of your wish list.
The sensor in the K-70 already performs better than the one in the k-3
09-28-2016, 07:44 AM   #368
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I'm with the people that think expecting a D500 competitor is (completely) unrealistic. Especially since the price of the D500 is at K-1 level. What I speculate we will get is an APS-C body with some K-1 tech migrated down (AF module which will cover most of the APS-C frame, articulated back screen, maybe 3rd wheel) as well as some of the K-70 features missing on the top end (integrated Wifi, better high-iso NR & bulb timer for long exposure). If a new BSI APS-C sensor is coming, then maybe it gets that too, but, frankly, that's not make or break for me.

09-28-2016, 07:49 AM   #369
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Something like Tamron and Saymang did - a bit more of the lens body visible than in the Tamron image, but with the same visual quality, not as cheap as the Samyang image:
Is that someone else's Vision Revolution ?
I'm not sure i'd buy it

Last edited by Zygonyx; 09-28-2016 at 08:05 AM.
09-28-2016, 09:21 AM   #370
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GFX and XD systems are not right way.
09-28-2016, 09:23 AM   #371
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Thank you Asahi Man, superb report
09-28-2016, 09:35 AM   #372
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Sensors are not plug-in replacements, though - they can't just take out the Sony sensor and put a Samsung sensor inside. There's a very delicate tuning involved, a lengthy process which could take longer than Sony recovering their sensor production to nominal levels.
I agree that it's not likely to occur. But I believe plug-in replacements are possible. There are numerous examples of different parts manufacturers having drop in replacements. Check the number of threads out in Google scape that help smartphone owners determine which of two sensor products they have in their phone. Granted the optical precision or lack of it with a smartphone doesn't directly relate, but it is an example of purpose built drop-in replacements.

Since the CMOS sensor parts are manufactured with x-ray lithography and the tolerances are so small even new generation electron microscopes have difficulty viewing them, it's all a matter of Pentax providing the exact foot print and connector layout. Any electronics chip fab worth their salt should be able to provide sub micron accurate parts to the manufacturer's specification. Gone are the days of white lab coat engineers with calipers measuring the part tolerances, those are not even precise enough at these microscopic measurements.If a little dust or minor scratches on the lens don't show up in a measurable way on photographs, sub micron differences are not going to be detectable to any human eye.

Even with that technical possibility, I have been persuaded from the thread that Pentax with a cost perspective and the likelihood that Sony is hard at work to return to prior levels of production this wouldn't make sense. I also understand that you may have been referring to just taking any sensor off the shelf which would require a full redesign as you'd stated but my viewpoint was for a specifically designed sensor for Pentax.
09-28-2016, 10:06 AM   #373
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QuoteOriginally posted by SeaRefractor Quote
I agree that it's not likely to occur. But I believe plug-in replacements are possible. There are numerous examples of different parts manufacturers having drop in replacements. Check the number of threads out in Google scape that help smartphone owners determine which of two sensor products they have in their phone. Granted the optical precision or lack of it with a smartphone doesn't directly relate, but it is an example of purpose built drop-in replacements.

Since the CMOS sensor parts are manufactured with x-ray lithography and the tolerances are so small even new generation electron microscopes have difficulty viewing them, it's all a matter of Pentax providing the exact foot print and connector layout. Any electronics chip fab worth their salt should be able to provide sub micron accurate parts to the manufacturer's specification. Gone are the days of white lab coat engineers with calipers measuring the part tolerances, those are not even precise enough at these microscopic measurements.If a little dust or minor scratches on the lens don't show up in a measurable way on photographs, sub micron differences are not going to be detectable to any human eye.

Even with that technical possibility, I have been persuaded from the thread that Pentax with a cost perspective and the likelihood that Sony is hard at work to return to prior levels of production this wouldn't make sense. I also understand that you may have been referring to just taking any sensor off the shelf which would require a full redesign as you'd stated but my viewpoint was for a specifically designed sensor for Pentax.
That's very interesting, something I didn't know. I may be quite mistaken, but my impression is that it isn't only about the sensor itself but its associated electronics and software. Presumably all these have to be changed, too? I think I recall reading somewhere that Sony and perhaps others are keen on selling the complete "package" (i.e. sensor plus supporting stuff) because there is more profit in it for them. And also, perhaps, more control over what Sony's camera competitors get up to. The increasing Sony monopoly among those who don't dine chez Canon or Panasonic isn't all that healthy, imho.
09-28-2016, 10:42 AM   #374
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Plug-in replacements are certainly possible, but they imply Sony and Samsung making fully compatible sensors - are they? Just because it happens with smartphones is not enough to make me assume it happens with the larger sensors, too. Sensor modules with a standard interface might be the norm there, but not with ILCs.
And Ricoh Imaging is in no position to force a standard interface on both Sony and Samsung.

Physical tolerances are not in question, we're talking sensors - not carpentry

Then there's the matter of tweaking a design - software and hardware - to the sensor used. The K-1 does very well on the newly published DxOMark test, and that can't be done by just getting some generic sensor, generically putting it in a generic camera and using generic software to control it

Besides, for the K-1 - the Pentax camera that is really affected by the sensor shortage - Samsung has no suitable i.e. FF sensor, period. Add a few years for developing it... the cost would have to be absorbed by dramatically raising the camera's price by the way.
It simply isn't an option.

I agree though with the basic idea of having some competition on the ILC sensor market, how could I not?
09-28-2016, 11:08 AM - 1 Like   #375
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Samsung has no suitable i.e. FF sensor, period.
They probably put those full frame sensor wafers the mirrorless rumors source saw in Dresden, which were meant for the full frame Nikon NX camera through the grinder .
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