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10-03-2016, 08:01 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Yes it does. That is why manufacturers based in countries with a strong currency move their plants to countries with weak currencies. You offset the effect of a strong currency. Ricoh buys many of the components for the K-1 from other countries, so as the Yen gets stronger Ricoh has more buying power. Labor to assemble the cameras becomes cheaper.

Sigma on the other hand is all made in Japan and even their components suppliers are based in Japan. Sigma can't offset the negative impact of a strong currency on its products. When the Yen gets stronger that means all of the components that go into their lenses become more expensive. When Ricoh was running big sales every month people were claiming it was due to the weak Yen, but now prices are rising they claim its due to a strong Yen. Sigma's prices have remained constant through all of the BS and they are also a Japanese company. Sigma is more sensitive to changes in the Yen than Ricoh.

---------- Post added 10-03-16 at 09:46 PM ----------



Yes. Thank you.
No, it doesn't change the US or EU K-1 price. Component costs are hedged.

Currency fluctuation changes local currency product price. The Yen price to the Distributors (and Dealers) is unchanged, but the Yen cost more local currency units. Same has happened to Canon, Nikon, Sony and Fuji prices.

Companies offshore their plants because local labor, a secular factor, is overpriced, not due to cyclical factors such as currency exchange. Labor is the most expensive part of manufactured goods. Capital flows to the lowest cost source of labor, absent tariffs.


Last edited by monochrome; 10-03-2016 at 08:13 PM.
10-03-2016, 09:18 PM   #77
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I don't see the great mystery here. The price rise was to be expected.
- The yen is strong compared to almost all currencies, and Japanese companies normally have to raise prices in such circumstances, not just in the camera market.
- The other big camera makers have already raised their prices in the last couple of months.
- The K-1 is selling well, so that will give Ricoh some confidence that sales will not collapse.

To put it in perspective:
- The K-1 was astonishingly good value to begin with, and still is now.
- There is constant downward pressure on camera prices, so the price will probably come down in time, maybe even for Black Friday in the US.
- Even after the price rise, the US and EU prices still seem to be cheaper than the domestic price in Japan.
- This kind thing happens in Japan too. Last November everything in the 645 series went up by 10% - about $1,000 dollars more for the body. They voted increases in component costs. At the same time, they had just dropped the price in the US.

It's not nice, but all the signs were there. If it gets cheaper for Black Friday, jump on it!
10-03-2016, 09:28 PM   #78
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Plus, the price increase was disclosed around august 26, due too be applied septembre 15, so wasn't a surprise..
10-03-2016, 09:43 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Of course Americans Pay only about 10% tax when they live in an expensive state. Europeans between 17% (a few people in Luxemburg) and 27% The poor (Hungarians)


It's better than that even. If you live in a state other than NY (and maybe a few others) and buy mail order, like from B&H, you don't pay any tax.


I live in Idaho and don't pay any tax on Amazon items either. Not sure for how long this can continue until the welfare state we are creating here comes for all our money though...

10-03-2016, 10:25 PM   #80
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The positive side of the price increase is that I can sell my gear second hand for the price I paid new. That's nearly what I did when going from apsc to full frame. Now, if the Pentax full frame gear increases, that's good. That's bad luck for photogs who postponed their purchase decision think the price would drop.
10-04-2016, 01:33 AM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
The positive side of the price increase is that I can sell my gear second hand for the price I paid new. That's nearly what I did when going from apsc to full frame. Now, if the Pentax full frame gear increases, that's good. That's bad luck for photogs who postponed their purchase decision think the price would drop.
But then you'll need to buy new gear for increased prices
10-04-2016, 03:24 AM - 1 Like   #82
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Maybe we need a sticky on economic theory?

I would say a couple of things. For those who think the K-1 is over priced, I think it is hard to argue that. The price is mostly based on what people are willing to pay for it, not based on the cost of components and distribution. In particular, if sensor supplies are short right now, then it makes more sense for Pentax to have a higher price until that bottle neck ceases. In addition, Pentax wants a certain amount of profit from each camera body sold and if the exchange rate is worsening then they have to bump their prices to maintain that.

Most of us don't really "need" a camera -- particularly not a full frame camera. If you truly need a full frame camera -- that is you shoot professionally and would benefit from having a K-1 plus f2.8 zooms -- then a 200 dollar increase is not going to be the end of the world and will not sway your decision. On the other hand, if money is tight, then continuing to shoot with APS-C for awhile and waiting for used K-1s to hit the market is probably the way to go. APS-C does offer very good performance these days and for a lot of images, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

In the end, the question is what the cost is of our "wants." It is frustrating when I want something and it is out of my budget. But that still doesn't mean that the thing is over priced, just that I am poorer than I wish I was.

Last edited by Rondec; 10-04-2016 at 03:38 AM.
10-04-2016, 03:33 AM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by skierd Quote
(...)

My assumption on this situation: Pentax and Tamron already have a great relationship. The current Tamron 15-30 and 24-70 f2.8 are class leading or nearly class leading, for less money than OEM lenses from Canon or Nikon, let alone $ony (check out the DXO ratings). Why reinvent the wheel? "Hey Tamron, use our superior coatings and weather sealing, and put our label on it" sounds like a strong strategy rather than investing large sums of money in something that'll cost more without necessarily being better while taking longer to get to market. (...)
I think the reason behind Ricoh Imaging's decision to rebadge Tamron lenses is even more simple than that.

We know that the whole full frame project was pushed by engineers whilst marketing people were reluctant. It was therefore a natural consequence of the uncertainty surrounding the success of the 24x36 camera and the contrasted opinions on it:

- to design in-house the lenses that could be appealing to the APS-C crowd as well, should the 24x36 camera be a failure: the 70-200mm f/2.8 and 150-450mm f/4.5-5.6;

- to rebadge existing designs for lenses much more linked to the 24x36 format: the 15-30mm f/2.8 and 24-70mm f/2.8. Instead of fixed R&D costs which would have been difficult to recoup if the 24x36 camera had been a failure, Ricoh Imaging chose to be exposed to variable costs only, directly linked to the number of copies sold, in buying the lenses from Tamron.

10-04-2016, 05:38 AM - 1 Like   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I don't see the great mystery here. The price rise was to be expected.
- The yen is strong compared to almost all currencies, and Japanese companies normally have to raise prices in such circumstances, not just in the camera market.
- The other big camera makers have already raised their prices in the last couple of months.
- The K-1 is selling well, so that will give Ricoh some confidence that sales will not collapse.

To put it in perspective:
- The K-1 was astonishingly good value to begin with, and still is now.
- There is constant downward pressure on camera prices, so the price will probably come down in time, maybe even for Black Friday in the US.
- Even after the price rise, the US and EU prices still seem to be cheaper than the domestic price in Japan.
- This kind thing happens in Japan too. Last November everything in the 645 series went up by 10% - about $1,000 dollars more for the body. They voted increases in component costs. At the same time, they had just dropped the price in the US.

It's not nice, but all the signs were there. If it gets cheaper for Black Friday, jump on it!
One more thing: the K1 doesn't strike one as particularly price sensitive, at least within limits. It sits on its own some way below the closest equivalent, the D810, and for as long as there is a gap between the two then the K1 will continue to sit on its own. Besides, folks buying into a 36 mpx FF are likely to be well-informed enthusiasts who'll look at everything in the round, with lenses included, over a period of some years. Fairly minor price disparities are a lot less important than some other things at this level, such as overall system and image quality, ergonomics and feel, service and support and - always underrated - simple fun and enjoyment. Say, 300 bucks is as nothing compared to something whose performance is going to irritate you every time you use it for the next five years.

I'd guess the situation is very different in the more cutthroat end of the market, around the K50 to K70 level where every buck counts. All this said, continually rising prices are a problem for the whole camera industry. Chasing a shrinking pool of wealthy users is really playing pass the parcel. When the music stops, there aren't going to be enough of these Don Moneybags to go round and some outfits will suffer.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-04-2016 at 05:44 AM.
10-04-2016, 05:40 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by lesmore49 Quote
I'm one of the Pentax members miffed about the increase in price of the K-1. I was planning to get one, but the price increase started me thinking do I need a K-1, do I need a 15-30 or a 24-70 F 2.8...to go with the new body ? Well maybe not the 24-70.

I started thinking, maybe not. I've been very happy, so far with my ASP-C bodies, K5, K10D Km. I do make some 8 X 10 prints every so often, occasionally an 11 X 14, but nothing bigger than that. Mostly I make 5 X 7's. I look at the print quality from these three cameras and my assortment of Pentax and one Sigma lens, and I have to say the pix in this size range are really sharp. Excellent quality really from ASP-C. Hard to think that the quality from these size prints could get any better, in my opinion.

When I analyze why I wanted the K-1 full frame and new FF lenses, it started to seem mostly because it was the newest, greatest, improved toy. That's me, though, remember others may differ.

There used to be a car show on TV and the host would test muscle cars, etc. He would then extol the virtues of the latest Ferrari, but then would pose the question to himself. Do I want this car, or do I need it ? Then for the most part he would come to the on air revelation, that really he just wanted it. Well that was me and the K-1.

I had a self imposed budget and the K-1 went up a couple hundred bucks. The price increase won't kill me, but it did make me question my motives. I can safely say that the K-1, plus one or two rebadged Tamron lenses...fall into my want category, not my need category.

Still not sure what I will do. We'll see. But lately I've kicked myself, I should of bought a new 645D, with the 'free' 75 mm lens....when it was at the clear out price of $3,995.00 USD awhile ago.

In the film days I did a lot of medium format (Mamiya system) ...I still miss it when I look at the pictures in this forum's medium format photographs.

What to do, but I have the luxury of not being in too much of a hurry. Ricoh, it's your move next.

Still same price on Amazon ;-)

On serious side, completely agree (although I just pulled the trigger).
Additionally, I've had to stop reading these forums as much since all this pointless speculation & gear porn lust gets old. And gets one poor. :-D

Last edited by MyTZuS; 10-04-2016 at 05:54 AM.
10-04-2016, 06:09 AM   #86
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Most of us don't really "need" a camera -- particularly not a full frame camera. If you truly need a full frame camera -- that is you shoot professionally and would benefit from having a K-1 plus f2.8 zooms -- then a 200 dollar increase is not going to be the end of the world and will not sway your decision. On the other hand, if money is tight, then continuing to shoot with APS-C for awhile and waiting for used K-1s to hit the market is probably the way to go. APS-C does offer very good performance these days and for a lot of images, you would be hard pressed to tell the difference.

In the end, the question is what the cost is of our "wants." It is frustrating when I want something and it is out of my budget. But that still doesn't mean that the thing is over priced, just that I am poorer than I wish I was.
Do you really believe what you said?

Because the impression I get is, you think if one doesn't see the value in spending the extra money, they are poor. There is another option. It being if one doesn't see the value in spending the extra money, it is because they don't see the value in spending the extra money. Being rich or poor has nothing to do with that personal decision.

The only way it would actually come into effect is if they were living hand to mouth, spending all they had when they had it. But that is a terrible way to live when you have a choice (such as with buying hobby cameras). One bump in the road and they are selling their precious camera to pay their mortgage/rent/other bills.

As you said, for most here it is a question of how high do we price our 'wants.' If a commercial shooter was looking at this, they wouldn't even strongly question the price. They'd just buy because it is a business expense. Then again, how many full time photographers do we have actively posting on the forum? Most of us are full time in some other field.
10-04-2016, 06:31 AM   #87
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Companies offshore their plants because local labor, a secular factor, is overpriced, not due to cyclical factors such as currency exchange. Labor is the most expensive part of manufactured goods.
Give me a list of countries with strong currencies and low real wages (not nominal). Pro-inflationary policies destroy wages and savings.

The Sony FE lenses are selling for the same price as they were 2 years ago. My Sony A7II is selling for the same price it was two years ago. Sigma lenses are selling for the same price. If the rise in the Yen is the reason for the price increase of the K-1 then why is it having the same effect on products from Sony and Sigma?

Since 1990 the average ratio of Dollar to Yen has been $1.00 to 104. Today it is $1.00 to 102.5.
10-04-2016, 06:56 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Give me a list of countries with strong currencies and low real wages (not nominal). Pro-inflationary policies destroy wages and savings.

The Sony FE lenses are selling for the same price as they were 2 years ago. My Sony A7II is selling for the same price it was two years ago. Sigma lenses are selling for the same price. If the rise in the Yen is the reason for the price increase of the K-1 then why is it having the same effect on products from Sony and Sigma?

Since 1990 the average ratio of Dollar to Yen has been $1.00 to 104. Today it is $1.00 to 102.5.
The mainstream camera companies are all caught in the same situation - a declining market - and they are all trying to take the same way out. They are trying to increase the value of each unit sold (to them, their margin) to offset the decline in total units sold. And as sales go down each year, so they need to pump up their margin. The rest is total BS so far as I can see. For example, come the fall of autumn leaves so comes the dull thud of press releases announcing that camera prices are going up due to the performance of the yen. It's become a yearly ritual, as has the false reprieve of reduced-price sales around Black Friday and Christmas. I guess this racket will continue until a few companies close their doors and some folks suddenly notice that no one is buying cameras anymore because they have become too expensive to bother with. At this point incredible price reductions will probably be announced 'due to the performance of the yen'.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-04-2016 at 07:26 AM.
10-04-2016, 07:51 AM   #89
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No matter the cause, for those of us hoping/waiting for rebates, promotions or any downward movement on price to maybe bring the K-1 into the realm of the possible, this isn't the greatest news...
10-04-2016, 07:53 AM - 1 Like   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
For example, come the fall of autumn leaves so comes the dull thud of press releases announcing that camera prices are going up due to the performance of the yen. It's become a yearly ritual, as has the false reprieve of reduced-price sales around Black Friday and Christmas. I guess this racket will continue until a few companies close their doors and some folks suddenly notice that no one is buying cameras anymore because they have become too expensive to bother with. At this point incredible price reductions will probably be announced 'due to the performance of the yen'.
I agree, and expect an amazing BF sale for K-1 with incredibly low price of $150 off
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