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12-16-2016, 05:52 AM   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by Vylen Quote
UNSW graduate with a Bachelors of Engineering, First Class Honours... quite proud of it really.

Regardless, we are arguing over a single statement you made


That's definitely something to think about.
I don't think about anything you've claimed .........because ............ opinions of aesthetics is a science, and not some random subjective matter. If you actually have the claimed educational level you would recognize this.

We are not arguing about one statement ......you are arguing about the statement I made ......and might I add, poorly !

Okay, I'm dealing with facts here:

Here's why - The Pentax K-01 was released into the market place. The K-01 was designed by a famous Industrial Designer. The design was heavily criticised. Sales were poor. The camera was heavily discounted and deleted from production. The End !

The Canon EOS M was released. Designed in house. It had no EVF (Like the K-01). The autofocus performance was poor with both M lenses and adapted EF lenses. The autofocus performance was heavily criticised. Customers expected ultra fast AF in a compact mirrorless body. Canon disabled or poorly implemented the autofocus so as not to endanger its DSLR business. Sales were poor. The camera was heavily discounted and deleted. The End ......but not totally. The EOS M 2 came out only in Asia. EOS M 5 might actually be the first acceptable incarnation, yet it still falls heavily short of the performance of the Sony A6000 and up.

Those are pretty much so the facts of two mirrorless cameras that have flopped.

The Pentax K-01 was a flop because it was an unattractive camera ....FACT ! Evidence provided: cause and effect established. Case closed ...everybody knows this except you !

Your only argument is: Oh well, a cameras visual appeal is a subjective matter ....... Quote Wikipedia with a link to Philosophy that aesthetics/attractiveness is subjective and objective depending on philosophical standpoint.

Rebuttal to your argument that it is a philosophical standpoint is: The science of Social Psychology shows that attractiveness/aesthetics is a biological matter, and also a social matter, and there are other aspects associated also.

Philosophy doesn't answer the question as to why the K-01 FAILED in the marketplace ........Social psychology does!

You might think its an attractive camera, but the marketplace did not. You might even be Marc Newson !

Lets deal in facts and not in philosophy.

---------- Post added 12-16-16 at 10:54 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
I have just banned you to my ignore list where you belong with the other trolls.
Come back in a weeks time and re-read what you wrote .......and then tell me that I'm wrong.

12-16-2016, 06:27 AM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
I am a male, and I like cars which have curves that are reminiscent to the shape of a woman's body. When cameras are curvey they might appeal to the male psyche because they have attributes of a woman's body. However, males also like masculine designs of steel like what we see with machine guns ....they generally do not have any feminine elements. They are machines designed to kill and are attractive to some of the base instincts of the male psyche.
Did you come here from the 1950s in a time machine?
12-16-2016, 07:14 AM - 2 Likes   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Did you come here from the 1950s in a time machine?
12-16-2016, 07:41 AM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
...I'd love to see a metal finish version of the K1 without mirror, without tilt screen and pentaprism replaced by EVF, for shooting with primes...
Me too! I dare say I'd probably like this version as much as or more than the K-1 original!

12-16-2016, 10:55 AM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Most of the MILCs don't have an EVF, yet they're received differently.
I don't believe that is true.

For example, Canon had a series of MILC flops {outside of Asia} and finally put an EVF on the M5; it will be interesting to see how it does.

Most currently-available MILC's from companies that do well in that area currently have an EVF.
Even most currently-available bridge cameras have an EVF

It is hard to find a modern camera without a viewfinder.
12-16-2016, 11:20 AM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It is hard to find a modern camera without a viewfinder.
iPhone? Galaxy7? Google Pixel? All these seem pretty modern and not a mirror or a viewfinder among them.
12-16-2016, 11:44 AM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I don't believe that is true.

For example, Canon had a series of MILC flops {outside of Asia} and finally put an EVF on the M5; it will be interesting to see how it does.

Most currently-available MILC's from companies that do well in that area currently have an EVF.
Even most currently-available bridge cameras have an EVF

It is hard to find a modern camera without a viewfinder.
Maybe you're right - things changed, and this year I didn't see the plethora of cheap, EVF-less cameras like back when Sony was still calling its MILCs NEX. These days, camera makers are targeting more expensive models.
But it was definitely true when the K-01 was launched. IMO
12-16-2016, 01:18 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
The Pentax K-01 was a flop because it was an unattractive camera ....FACT ! Evidence provided: cause and effect established. Case closed ...everybody knows this except you !
Fact: A few months after the K-01 was discontinued, they re-released it in Japan in a blue and white motif due to demand and its visual appeal.

In other-words the camera, while it was largely considered unattractive ( which is bad in a global market space when you're in the business to sell stuff), was still liked by people regardless. Why is this so hard to get across? To claim something as ugly as fact is just plain wrong. Which is what your original quoted statement said - quite clearly. Popular thought/opinion does not make a truth/fact. Whilst it is true to say that popular opinion considered the K-01 ugly, it is not true to say that everyone considered it ugly.

12-16-2016, 01:38 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by zoolander Quote
I was off flying around the galaxy in my galactic space ship shooting aliens
Yeah i saw you there, ya missed me!

---------- Post added 12-17-16 at 07:39 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Did you come here from the 1950s in a time machine?
The City hes in resembles the 1950s, they dont need machines....
12-16-2016, 01:51 PM - 2 Likes   #265
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We shouldn't go on too much, arguing about whether social psychology is a science or not. Traditional science measures quantifiable variables and creates models of the associated behaviour that apply in all cases. It establishes universal laws that to some degree of accuracy predict behaviour for each and every instance. Social psychology and its applications like industrial psychology predict the probability of behaviour in social groups. There are too many variables involved in social interactions, not least in the decision-making process that occurs in each individual's mind, to be able to model and predict for individuals. In that respect, it's a bit like predicting rainfall, in that meteorologists will forecast the probability that there will be a certain amount in a given period, just as economists will predict the gross effect of individuals' differing choices in given groups.

Social psychology is a science, but it can't predict at the micro level. It is, nonetheless, able to predict at the macro level.

So, in some respects, both sides of this argument are correct. Abstract concepts like beauty and ugliness can be defined by physical features that fall into one category or the other, depending on an agreed set of standards, but how an individual sees the subject and judges it as beautiful or ugly is not necessarily going to be following that set of standards. Furthermore, the standards will vary from group to group.

As to whether or not the K-01 failed in the market place because the majority of potential buyers deemed it to be ugly, what we have here is opinion. What we lack is specific survey data that validates that opinion. Sales data only tells us it failed, not why.
12-16-2016, 02:16 PM - 5 Likes   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by surfar Quote
K-01 was a Japenese big seller....demand prompted the Smurf model there.


Quirky and colourful always attracts Japanese buyers.


The design was good enough to win a couple of awards, regardless of some people who didn't like it.
Really big seller?
For Pentax conditions yes,but not in pure numbers of sales.
And in Europe and America,it was a flop.

---------- Post added 16-12-16 at 22:31 ----------

And at last,Marc Newton design was a study.
The 01 was not a big deal to produce.
Only the plastic outer body was new,all other parts are made in current production for current models of K Line.
The current design team in Tokyo is absolutely highest grade,look to our loved big one,K-1.
It was designed by a mix of the new team,comes from Ricoh and the old current stuff of Pentax old team.
Great job,also new lenses.
A good mix of both teams done these great jobs of the current lens line.
All ranges,highest quality.
And if....if we will see a new camera line,it will also be a mix of both teams.
Cause they are working as one team.
February a new fullframe mirrorless?
Nothing as fact,but something as speculation.
But still only a fistful of speculations.
Best regards
12-16-2016, 06:17 PM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
Really big seller?
Didnt everything produced get sold?...i dont see any on shop shelves!
12-16-2016, 09:42 PM - 1 Like   #268
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Bought 2 of'em
12-17-2016, 02:01 AM - 1 Like   #269
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It was a long way to sold it to the last body,in Europe were a lot of bodies retoured to Pentax,cause of no sales.
Most sales were in Japan.
But it was not a really big problem for Pentax,but also not a big win.
Pentax France hated the 01 and they stopped every cent for public relations to push the 01.
So,no money for sells power in Europe.
No big orders in US.
Only a lot of offers and little sale shows in Japan.
But this camera was an absolute learning process for Pentax.
That's the good point.
Best regards
12-17-2016, 03:59 AM   #270
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The problem with the K-01 was two-fold -- first of all the release price was really high for what it was and second, the specifications were pretty far under where Pentax entry level cameras were at at the time. You take a camera and limit it to a hair over 2 fps with a tiny buffer, poor auto focus, no EVF and try to sell it at 750 dollars and there is no question as to why it flopped.

Beyond which, Pentaxians are pretty conservative and didn't like Marc Newson's styling on the camera.

If Pentax had released it at 350 or even 400, it probably would have had decent sales in the beginning, even though people would have still complained about it. As it was, it took rock bottom pricing in the 200s to move units.
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