Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-23-2016, 08:01 AM   #361
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 22,721
@mecrox
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I wonder why you're not convinced... maybe because you're using a strawman?
I didn't suggest it was well developed and priced as a market product. It wasn't. It was typical Hoya bottom-line short-sightedness (see last sentence or two).

However, I also don't believe Hoya really cared what happened to K-01. K-30 is another matter, which is why they 'tested' the new stuff in a separate product. That's a somewhat common product strategy, though it appears not to b a strategy employed by Ricoh unless you consider K-3ll a test platform for new technologies.

Hoya priced K-01 to not lose money. They should have priced it to sell cameras and ended it after the planned production run was complete.

12-23-2016, 08:29 AM - 1 Like   #362
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2011
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 3,927
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not convinced that the K-01 story can be presented as an act of supreme cunning and foresight by Pentax. They got it wrong, simple as that.
From the engineering point of view, Pentax got the K-01 absolutely right.

A solid, heat-absorbing body,
a big, beefy battery to keep feeding the hard-working viewscreen,
and enough register distance to send the light rays all the way down to the pixels.

Compare that with the flimsy little Sony MILCs of the time,
and the poor edge perfomance of nonretrofocus wide angle lenses.
12-23-2016, 08:40 AM   #363
Pentaxian
RonHendriks1966's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2009
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 8,986
QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Not convinced that the K-01 story can be presented as an act of supreme cunning and foresight by Pentax. They got it wrong, simple as that. Part of the upset was setting initial pricing at about twice the going rate.Happens all the time. Every single company has a few of these in its cupboard. So does Pentax. Most folks managed to enjoy the camera once the price became reasonable, and I certainly did, but it had too many limitations to make it a long-term winner. The idea - a K-mount mirrorless camera - was and still is perfectly feasible and might even be more successful today than it was then because today all the technology like on-sensor AF is in place and well understood.Pentax could easily have another go unless their research indicates that such a platform - it's much more than one body - would never sell enough to be a proposition.
Pentax did this a little bit to much. The K-01 was priced to high to get sales take of at start. So was Q. The story doesn't end there. The K-S1 was priced to high for what it was. Also K-70 doesn't seem to get out of shops at the current price, wich is to high for the camera that has some old tech inside.

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Well, no big sensor ML in the Ricoh Imaging CES's teasing, limited to Theta & K-1 :

RICOH will hold a booth in CES 2017
CES is probably Theta only show.
12-23-2016, 08:45 AM   #364
retired nerd
Loyal Site Supporter
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 9,209
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
K-01 was really more of a test bed for new technologies and assembly techniques found in K-30/K-50 than an intentional product line. Live View, new IBIS, new CDAF, some other stuff. Whether the camera model itself was profitable is somewhat irrelevant. The technology was proven in a one-off model that could be discarded if the tech failed. Unfortunately the model was not well accepted by the market at the price (Q suffered from a similar problem).

It's almost as if the Newson design and other objections were a smoke screen to separate the model from the real cameras.
QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
From the engineering point of view, Pentax got the K-01 absolutely right.

A solid, heat-absorbing body,
a big, beefy battery to keep feeding the hard-working viewscreen,
and enough register distance to send the light rays all the way down to the pixels.

Compare that with the flimsy little Sony MILCs of the time,
and the poor edge perfomance of nonretrofocus wide angle lenses.
So the failure was in imagination, in marketing..

IIRC, the early Sony MILC's didn't have EVF either, which is why I skipped them when looking for a new camera after deciding to leave Canon.
But given a little bit of time, they really have it right now - they are producing the camera people want to buy, rather than the one the company wants to build.

12-23-2016, 09:22 AM - 1 Like   #365
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 18,333
The hard thing is that since the K-01 CDAF has come a really long way. The K-1 has significantly better performance with live view (single shot) auto focus than the K-01 did. Tracking auto focus with live view auto focus is still a miserable experience, but I think the technology has come far enough that a K-02 would be a reasonable product, particularly if they upgraded some of the other specifications. I think an EVF would be better than just relying on the rear screen, but much would depend on the final pricing Pentax would shoot for. If they just tried for something low end and APS-C, it would probably be fine to leave it off. If they stuck a full frame sensor in it and went between a K3 II and K-1 with regard to pricing, it would definitely need an EVF.
12-23-2016, 09:27 AM - 1 Like   #366
Pentaxian
mecrox's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxford, UK
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 2,303
QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
From the engineering point of view, Pentax got the K-01 absolutely right.

A solid, heat-absorbing body,
a big, beefy battery to keep feeding the hard-working viewscreen,
and enough register distance to send the light rays all the way down to the pixels.

Compare that with the flimsy little Sony MILCs of the time,
and the poor edge perfomance of nonretrofocus wide angle lenses.
I liked my K-01 up to a point, but an engineering point of view is really only part of the story. It couldn't focus very well which I found something of a limitation, as I did the lack of an EVF especially in bright light and the deadly slow frame rate. The K-01 was premature, I think. The same idea today would work far, far better as a camera because the necessary tech is now out there. I don't think the idea of a K-mount mirrorless camera should be discounted at all. With the every new year, more of the technical bits turn up - better on-sensor AF, beefier processors, improved LCD screens, etc. Whether it would sell is another question but the tech is there now which it wasn't at the time of the K-01. The K-01's build quality was very impressive with a couple of exceptions (silly rubber card cover, e.g.) but overall the package just wasn't what people wanted. If it had been, it is hard to think the the idea would have been discontinued in the way it was.

Last edited by mecrox; 12-23-2016 at 09:39 AM.
12-23-2016, 10:19 AM - 2 Likes   #367
Pentaxian
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,264
Wow, this thread is longer than the K-01 production run.


I'm here all week. Don't forget to tip your waitress. And get the roast beef. It's good. Really good.
12-23-2016, 11:41 AM - 1 Like   #368
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: mid nth coast,nsw
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,597
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I'm here all week
On yr bike!...ha ha.

12-25-2016, 09:56 AM   #369
Senior Member
runswithsizzers's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 118
QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
They would'nt launch it at CES anyway. CP+ or Photokina. Maybe some theta or WG-news on CES... CP+ will bring more
What is "CP+"? And more importantly for me, when is it?

I have some lovely DA primes which I would very much like to take on an extended walking tour next September. But my K-x may have some kind of issue, and my K-3 is too big and heavy. No way am I going to try to use the back screen in full sun, so the K-01 is not an option fo me.

So IF this rumor turns into a camera that I can use with my DA primes, and which has some kind of viewfinder, and which weighs no more than my K-x, and which costs no more than the K-70, THEN Pentax will continue to keep my loyalty (which goes back to 1970).

Otherwise, I'll get a travel camera (APS or m4/3) from Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus, or Sony. Unfortunately, I can't afford to keep my Pentax kit and also reproduce it with another brand, so my future with Pentax depends on this rumor turning into something I can use.

But I can't wait much past spring of 2017 to make my decision.
12-25-2016, 10:42 AM   #370
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 10,813
CP+ is the fair where Japanese photographic companies will make their spring announcements; it's every year in February (this year, from 23 to 26 February). CP+ and Photokina are pretty much the shows we should pay attention to (though Photokina is once in 2 years, in September. Even numbers, so this year we had a Photokina edition and next year we won't).

Camera companies, of course, won't announce exclusively at CP+ and Photokina; but if they're planning their announcements around these fairs, they'll make them there.

By the way, the K-70 is merely 100g heavier than the K-x... IMHO the pentaprism viewfinder alone make it worth, and then some.
12-25-2016, 12:19 PM   #371
Site Supporter
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Gladys, Virginia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 18,333
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
CP+ is the fair where Japanese photographic companies will make their spring announcements; it's every year in February (this year, from 23 to 26 February). CP+ and Photokina are pretty much the shows we should pay attention to (though Photokina is once in 2 years, in September. Even numbers, so this year we had a Photokina edition and next year we won't).

Camera companies, of course, won't announce exclusively at CP+ and Photokina; but if they're planning their announcements around these fairs, they'll make them there.

By the way, the K-70 is merely 100g heavier than the K-x... IMHO the pentaprism viewfinder alone make it worth, and then some.
In general, Pentax hasn't tied themselves to special photography fairs to make announcements. They just announce stuff when it is ready.
12-25-2016, 12:28 PM   #372
Loyal Site Supporter
Loyal Site Supporter




Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 6,081
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
The hard thing is that since the K-01 CDAF has come a really long way. The K-1 has significantly better performance with live view (single shot) auto focus than the K-01 did. Tracking auto focus with live view auto focus is still a miserable experience, but I think the technology has come far enough that a K-02 would be a reasonable product, particularly if they upgraded some of the other specifications. I think an EVF would be better than just relying on the rear screen, but much would depend on the final pricing Pentax would shoot for. If they just tried for something low end and APS-C, it would probably be fine to leave it off. If they stuck a full frame sensor in it and went between a K3 II and K-1 with regard to pricing, it would definitely need an EVF.
The Olympus OMD-EM1 MK2 and the Fuji X-T2 both have very good AF tracking. The problem is that while Olympus, Fuji, & Sony have all been working really hard at AF-C performance, Ricoh has not. In decent light most new mirrorless cameras outperform the K-1 when it comes to AF-C and tracking. The K-1 is pretty decent, but when you see how far Sony, Olympus, & Fuji have come in such a short time it is amazing. I really don't know why Ricoh is still struggling with AF.

When the K-01 came out, PDAF on sensor was not an option. Now that PDAF is integrated with the sensor, mirrorless cameras have an advantage in terms of AF over the K-1 when it comes to accuracy and speed in decent light. If Ricoh had been putting money into mirrorless AF ever since the K-01 came out, then I would think they could compete with a mirrorless LX style body, but there is no indication Ricoh has invested in this technology. They don't appear to be putting too much in to PDAF technology either.
12-25-2016, 12:54 PM   #373
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 10,813
QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
In general, Pentax hasn't tied themselves to special photography fairs to make announcements. They just announce stuff when it is ready.
That's why I said they won't announce exclusively at such fairs. OTOH, I'd say they generally did it at one of the major fair, if there was one near the planned announcement date.
12-25-2016, 04:10 PM   #374
JPT
Pentaxian




Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Tokyo
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 1,424
QuoteOriginally posted by runswithsizzers Quote
What is "CP+"? And more importantly for me, when is it?

I have some lovely DA primes which I would very much like to take on an extended walking tour next September. But my K-x may have some kind of issue, and my K-3 is too big and heavy. No way am I going to try to use the back screen in full sun, so the K-01 is not an option fo me.

So IF this rumor turns into a camera that I can use with my DA primes, and which has some kind of viewfinder, and which weighs no more than my K-x, and which costs no more than the K-70, THEN Pentax will continue to keep my loyalty (which goes back to 1970).

Otherwise, I'll get a travel camera (APS or m4/3) from Fuji, Panasonic, Olympus, or Sony. Unfortunately, I can't afford to keep my Pentax kit and also reproduce it with another brand, so my future with Pentax depends on this rumor turning into something I can use.

But I can't wait much past spring of 2017 to make my decision.
If you are looking for the closest modern equivalent of the your K-x, I would suggest the K-S1. It has a noticeable weight advantage over the K-3 (a bit lighter then the K-x), retains all the features of the K-x, and it's very affordable. If you can wait until spring, you might find that a new small Pentax model comes out, but historically they have released cameras like this in late spring or early summer, not to coincide with a camera show.
12-25-2016, 05:23 PM - 1 Like   #375
Senior Member
runswithsizzers's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 118
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
CP+ is the fair where Japanese photographic companies will make their spring announcements; it's every year in February (this year, from 23 to 26 February). CP+ and Photokina are pretty much the shows we should pay attention to (though Photokina is once in 2 years, in September. Even numbers, so this year we had a Photokina edition and next year we won't).

Camera companies, of course, won't announce exclusively at CP+ and Photokina; but if they're planning their announcements around these fairs, they'll make them there.

By the way, the K-70 is merely 100g heavier than the K-x... IMHO the pentaprism viewfinder alone make it worth, and then some.
The reason I bought the K-3 instead of the K-70 is because I was afraid the K-70 might inherit the dreaded aperture box failure of it's predecessors, the K-30 and K-50. Can anyone really say THAT problem is behind us until Ricoh says: "Oh yeah, sorry about that. We figured out what the problem was and we fixed it" ? Lacking that, only time will tell. And that kind of time, I don't have.

Sadly, I do not have a Pentax dealer in my home town, so I was not able to actually see (and feel) a K-3 before I bought mine. Sure I read the specs, so I knew the K-3 was "only" 220 g heavier (and a few mm larger) than my K-x, but I was still shocked the first time I picked up the K-3. I would love to shoot the K-3 in the small villages of France - but do I really want to carry this beast on my back IN-BETWEEN the small villages of France?

If I was going to accept the risk of having an aperture block failure in the middle of a once-in-a-lifetime trip, then I would probably get a K-S1 which is 22g LIGHTER than my K-x (and which also has the highly desirable pentaprism viewfinder). The K-S1 is also quite a bit less expensive than the K-70.

Personally, I don't care about megapixels. In fact I would prefer 16MP to 20MP, and 20MP to 24MP; I don't need the extra resolution, so the larger files only complicate my digital life. For the same sensor size, don't more pixels also increase noise levels in low light? Personally, I don't care about flippy screens, or weather resistance, or FPS, or GPS. All I care about is which camera will work with my DA primes, is reliable, will give me a pretty good image, and which is also small and light enough to carry all day, every day, without becoming a cursed burden.

Right now, I'm not sure there is any such camera in the Pentax lineup.

But *IF* Pentax were to release an upgraded version of the K-01 (K-02?) with a decent EVF, in a package similar in size and weight to the current K-01 or K-S1, then life would be good.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
body, camera, display, engineering, evf, fuji, grip, hoodman, illumination, k-01, k-30, k1000, lcd, lenses, light, mirror, mirrorless, mode, ovf, pentax, pentax mirrorless camera, pentax news, pentax rumors, press, release, ricoh, sensor, success
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lens Size Comparison between Mirrorless and dSLRs interested_observer Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 16 09-28-2016 05:03 AM
For Sale - Sold: Pentax K-01 Mirrorless Camera Fat Albert Sold Items 3 07-03-2015 06:45 PM
Some Thoughts on the K-01 and Mirrorless From Pentax Biro Pentax Mirrorless Cameras 108 06-25-2014 03:20 PM
New K-01 mirrorless camera coming Mister Horrible Pentax News and Rumors 2067 02-21-2012 09:09 PM
Pentax k-x and Pentax k1000 (old camera) question huskies4ever Pentax DSLR Discussion 14 08-23-2010 08:48 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:07 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top