Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
10-08-2016, 12:34 PM   #46
Site Supporter
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,732
QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
They do not need to develop everything from scratch, they have useful experience from at least 4 different systems.
....
They might not offer the most advanced or highest performance mirrorless at the first try. But Ricoh/Pentax can offer something more important IMO, cameras designed for photographers, instead of high tech toys designed for geeks like some other brands tend to do. Cameras with impressive spec sheets, but frustrating to use.
But they have zero experience with what may be the most important component of MILC - namely EVF. And I'm tired of hearing that they are waiting for that technology to "mature" - Sony had a really great EVF on the A6000, which was released 2-1/2 years ago. I kept waiting for Pentax to release a Q-S2 or K-02 to get that experience, but they haven't, and in the meantime Sony, Panasonic and Olympus keep getting more and more experience.

10-08-2016, 12:37 PM   #47
Pentaxian
D1N0's Avatar

Join Date: May 2012
Location: ---
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 3,620
QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
The K-01 sold more copy's then K-S1.
Even if you can produce a source. Market size in 2012 when K-01 was introduced was double that of 2014 when the K-s1 was introduced. And even most Pentaxians didn't like it (which was not the case with the K-01). It was a fluke.
10-08-2016, 01:14 PM   #48
Pentaxian
RobA_Oz's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Tasmania, Australia
Photos: Gallery
Posts: 4,125
QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
But they have zero experience with what may be the most important component of MILC - namely EVF. P
Not quite the case. There was an EVF for the Ricoh GXR, and the design teams for the two brands have, I believe, been merged.
10-08-2016, 01:15 PM   #49
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,426
The EVF would be made by Epson, anyway.

10-08-2016, 02:53 PM   #50
mee
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,257
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Not stoneage. Just a tool forcing you to your brain some other way. Different does not mean stone age.
No it is 'stoneage.' The technology didn't exist back then 40 years ago.. it wasn't a decision to go without auto because they were trying to force the photographer's brain to a higher function. It was because they did not have high powered computers with the tiny form factor they do now that operate on (relatively) tiny batteries then.

Back when the K1000 was released in 1976, the Apple I was brand new. Laughably slow and large compared to the computer architecture used inside a modern DSLR. Even if they wanted to, they couldn't offer those features back then.

But really, anyone can just disable the auto features on a modern camera if they want to 'force their brain.' There is no need to request a company spend millions designing/fabricating/producing and then trying to sell to schools/vendors a manual only niche cameras to a shrinking market inside of a shrinking market. That does not make business sense.

At best, I think those wanting such a device can hope for an MILC with a K1000 look and the auto features included. From there they can just disable those features.
10-08-2016, 03:53 PM - 1 Like   #51
Pentaxian
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,007
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Or they could just buy a K-r/K-30/K-50/K-S1/K-S2, disable autofocus, set the camera to Manual exposure mode, and disable the back LCD panel. Voila.. we're back in the stoneage.
Or they could keep the AF but optimize the MF experience with a large, bright, high resolution EVF with aids like focus peaking and automatic zooming when the focus ring is turned.

This is not a technology challenge; it's a product marketing one. Not everyone wants or needs the latest tech. Some crave a unique experience. Millennial are the biggest buyers of vinyl records and the Fuji Instax is such a hit that Leica copied them. I was at the epicenter of Hipster last summer, Williamsburg Brooklyn, and some cat sitting at a folding table banging away at a typewriter while his friend leaned up against a brick wall and played saxophone. These aren't rational choices, they are emotional ones.

Release a mirrorless camera that looks like a K1000 and that doesn't have a rear LCD but can connect quickly to a phone and Ricoh may tap into that market.
10-08-2016, 04:15 PM   #52
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hamilton, Texas
Photos: Albums
Posts: 634
QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
A cheap body made for youngsters with no money. I doubt it will happen
The Q-S1 is a great student camera, IMHO.
10-08-2016, 04:24 PM   #53
Pentaxian
Fogel70's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Photos: Albums
Posts: 1,737
I bet Pentax could design 100 different camera custom designed for different users.
But it's probably more practical for them and their customers to have 2-3 cameras that can be set up for all those different needs.

10-08-2016, 04:38 PM   #54
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hamilton, Texas
Photos: Albums
Posts: 634
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Or they could keep the AF but optimize the MF experience with a large, bright, high resolution EVF with aids like focus peaking and automatic zooming when the focus ring is turned.
Trying to make a modern DSLR, or most mirrorless cameras, work like a vintage 35mm SLR is usually disappointing for a number of reasons. Let's go down the list. . .
  • APS-C or M4/3 crop factor.
  • General lack of split prism or micro-prism focusing screens on DSLRs.
  • Lenses designed for AF with lousy mechanical action.
  • Lenses designed for AF with focus-by-wire.
  • Somehow the colors just never look like Kodak Ektar 100.

Although. . . Oddly enough, I've noticed more and more new manual-focus lenses hitting the market lately. Others are following where Samyang led. I sometimes feel like autofocus is a fad that will eventually run its course. Sort of like audio CDs. Or digital watches. Or smokeless gunpowder.
10-08-2016, 04:49 PM - 3 Likes   #55
Lens Buying Addict
monochrome's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Kirkwood (St. Louis) MO
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 19,494
K-01 eventually sold 150,000 units - 125,000 of the original, which was the plan, and 25,000 of the Smurf blue/white second run. While a significant number of units was sold through liquidation sites at end-of-life it wasn't the abject failure we are led to believe.

As the owner of two - and potentially looking for a Smurf - I can assure you it is a fine camera for use with DA Limiteds and small M primes. It's actually a nice street camera.
10-08-2016, 04:55 PM   #56
Pentaxian




Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Romania
Posts: 8,426
It wasn't an abject failure, yet it failed to sell for anything close to the initial price. They had plans with it, special lenses and such - cancelled.
And it wasn't a bad camera, not at all - just unusual, as I said in an earlier post; it shows that we're not ready for anything outside some predefined patterns.
10-08-2016, 05:20 PM   #57
mee
Site Supporter




Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 5,257
QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Or they could keep the AF but optimize the MF experience with a large, bright, high resolution EVF with aids like focus peaking and automatic zooming when the focus ring is turned.

This is not a technology challenge; it's a product marketing one. Not everyone wants or needs the latest tech. Some crave a unique experience. Millennial are the biggest buyers of vinyl records and the Fuji Instax is such a hit that Leica copied them. I was at the epicenter of Hipster last summer, Williamsburg Brooklyn, and some cat sitting at a folding table banging away at a typewriter while his friend leaned up against a brick wall and played saxophone. These aren't rational choices, they are emotional ones.

Release a mirrorless camera that looks like a K1000 and that doesn't have a rear LCD but can connect quickly to a phone and Ricoh may tap into that market.
Yes because that is the majority market right there.. in hipster millennials geeking out on old technology. Next you'll tell me we should give up computers and go back to typewriters because some kids decided they were the in thing this week.

Back in reality, where you and I exist, and also where big money is risked and shareholders are chomping at the bit for big returns, you know these companies have to appeal to the largest number of people possible. I think that is why Pentax throws in video support even though it is lackluster comparatively. That is why they offer the multitude of new step-up-from-kit lenses.

We're MUCH more likely to get a camera that has the modern amenities but looks retro versus an actual retro build camera (full manual only but with a digital sensor).

We have a vocal minority of hyperniche here trying to push their weight around asking for something the market isn't quite buying in abundance. MILC in general still only holds around 10% of the market vs DSLRs that hold around 30% (based on 2015 CIPA data). And looking a few years back from then too it wasn't MILC eating DSLR share. BOTH rose eating up non-interchangable lens camera share (bridge and cheap pocketables where smartphones took over).

Now take that and think how a manual focus only, manual exposure only MILC is going to sell. It is safe to say dismally! It will appeal hugely to a select few, but they alone won't return big money back to Pentax like a K-1 has at this time.

It is really easy to dream up toys but it is another thing to expect companies to invest in them... those millenials may play with a typewriter or the instax at the moment, but they are also going to pull out their iphone or galaxy and snap photos... with a camera that is auto-everything.
10-08-2016, 05:30 PM   #58
Site Supporter
reh321's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: South Bend, IN, USA
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,732
QuoteOriginally posted by Tony Belding Quote
Trying to make a modern DSLR, or most mirrorless cameras, work like a vintage 35mm SLR is usually disappointing for a number of reasons. Let's go down the list. . .
  • General lack of split prism or micro-prism focusing screens on DSLRs.
I believe people seriously over-state this issue. Several months ago, on a holiday trip when I knew I'd be taking a number of pictures, I disciplined myself to use only a particular M42 lens the entire day. (*) I don't use paper-thin DOF, which helps, but the main reason everything was in focus was that the focus confirmation on my K-30 is just as reliable as the AF is. If the camera can AF, I can MF.

(*) Incidentally, the reason I did this was to convince myself that my "aperture control block failure" backup plan was feasible.
10-08-2016, 05:47 PM   #59
Site Supporter




Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Hamilton, Texas
Photos: Albums
Posts: 634
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Now take that and think how a manual focus only, manual exposure only MILC is going to sell. It is safe to say dismally! It will appeal hugely to a select few, but they alone won't return big money back to Pentax like a K-1 has at this time.
I think this discussion has gotten off track. Maybe I missed something? I don't remember anybody suggesting that Pentax produce a manual-focus, manual-exposure camera. That's certainly not the rumor we started with at the beginning of this thread. The rumor, as I read it, was that Pentax might produce something more-or-less similar to a Fujifilm X-T1 or X-T2 except with K-mount. Those cameras do have autofocus, they have video, you can put all the dials on the A-for-Auto setting if you want. They do look retro, and they have retro-style controls, including aperture rings on many of their lenses (but they are electronic, not mechanical). Actually the control scheme is similar to the Pentax ZX-5n film camera, which I believe was well-liked by many.

I like what Fujifilm have done with the X-T1. I like the form factor, the controls, the retro style. I would be pleased if Pentax follow some of those cues. I would much prefer a camera that has retro control dials instead of something that's a mere styling exercise on the same DSLR control layout.

However. . . As much as I admire the Fujifilm X-T1, I dumped it in favor of a Sony Alpha A7. I wanted to use my adapted 135 format SLR lenses on a 135 format sensor, and the Sony met the specifications, and the Fuji didn't.
10-08-2016, 05:48 PM - 3 Likes   #60
Pentaxian
johnmflores's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Somerville, NJ
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 5,007
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yes because that is the majority market right there.. in hipster millennials geeking out on old technology. Next you'll tell me we should give up computers and go back to typewriters because some kids decided they were the in thing this week.

Back in reality, where you and I exist, and also where big money is risked and shareholders are chomping at the bit for big returns, you know these companies have to appeal to the largest number of people possible. I think that is why Pentax throws in video support even though it is lackluster comparatively. That is why they offer the multitude of new step-up-from-kit lenses.

We're MUCH more likely to get a camera that has the modern amenities but looks retro versus an actual retro build camera (full manual only but with a digital sensor).

We have a vocal minority of hyperniche here trying to push their weight around asking for something the market isn't quite buying in abundance. MILC in general still only holds around 10% of the market vs DSLRs that hold around 30% (based on 2015 CIPA data). And looking a few years back from then too it wasn't MILC eating DSLR share. BOTH rose eating up non-interchangable lens camera share (bridge and cheap pocketables where smartphones took over).

Now take that and think how a manual focus only, manual exposure only MILC is going to sell. It is safe to say dismally! It will appeal hugely to a select few, but they alone won't return big money back to Pentax like a K-1 has at this time.

It is really easy to dream up toys but it is another thing to expect companies to invest in them... those millenials may play with a typewriter or the instax at the moment, but they are also going to pull out their iphone or galaxy and snap photos... with a camera that is auto-everything.
You need to spend some time re-reading what I wrote. I said nothing about a fully manual camera. I said nothing about MF only.

And what's all of this talk about big returns? We're talking about Pentax here, not Canon or Nikon or Sony. Ricoh has found recent success focusing on profitable niches (medium format, full-frame K-mount, 360) not aiming for a breakout hit that will sell out at Best Buy. All that I am doing is suggesting* that another profitable niche is the young art student taking their first photo class and in need of a camera. Not something that aspired to replace their phone, rather something that works seamlessly with it while at the same time giving them manual control when they (or their professor) wants it so that they can learn the basics and something that introduces them to the K-mount.

BTW, your condescending tone is not appreciated.


* This has always been an open forum to express ideas. Just because you don't agree with some does not mean that a "vocal minority of hyperniche here" is "trying to push their weight around". Chill, dude. It's just a forum.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
body, camera, display, engineering, evf, fuji, grip, hoodman, illumination, k-01, k-30, k1000, lcd, lenses, light, mirror, mirrorless, mode, ovf, pentax, pentax mirrorless camera, pentax news, pentax rumors, press, release, ricoh, sensor, success
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Lens Size Comparison between Mirrorless and dSLRs interested_observer Non-Pentax Cameras: Canon, Nikon, etc. 16 09-28-2016 05:03 AM
For Sale - Sold: Pentax K-01 Mirrorless Camera Fat Albert Sold Items 3 07-03-2015 06:45 PM
Some Thoughts on the K-01 and Mirrorless From Pentax Biro Pentax Mirrorless Cameras 108 06-25-2014 03:20 PM
New K-01 mirrorless camera coming Mister Horrible Pentax News and Rumors 2067 02-21-2012 09:09 PM
Pentax k-x and Pentax k1000 (old camera) question huskies4ever Pentax DSLR Discussion 14 08-23-2010 08:48 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:46 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top