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01-08-2017, 03:59 PM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
This is the Asahi Pentax Spotmatic D Concept imagined by Lieke Esveldt.
Looks cool but... that looks like a rangefinder, not a spotmatic?

01-08-2017, 04:19 PM - 1 Like   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by Imp Quote
@Kunzite, yes, I was hoping magically that it could I know it can't possibly work IRL
@stevebrot I know - I thought you were hoping pentax could make a dslr like that, which wouldn't be possible. My bad! Even a mirrorles pk mount would have to be bigger
That is why I referenced the EPSON R-D1 and Cosina. It was a minimally modified Voigtlander Bessa R rangefinder transformed into a 6Mpx digital and was the world's first mirrorless ILC. Here is a recent video showing the camera in use:


It has been argued that the same could have been done with the Cosina-made Nikon FM10 or any of the K-mount derivatives of the Cosina CT-1 compact film SLR. They all share chassis with the Bessa R*. The sensor and electronics from the R-D1 will quite literally drop into the one of those SLR bodies. After all, what is the difference between rangefinder and SLR 35mm cameras? The rangefinder focus mechanism and mirror box, of course. The Soviets demonstrated this nicely when they created the original Zenit SLR from the Leica-derived Zorki rangefinder. That explains why the first Zenits had 39mm thread mount lenses.

Back to making the digital work. The key is bare bones digital capture. Remove the boards and motors used for AF and motorized drive as well as the big battery to support them and one can use a smaller battery and much smaller form factor. Keep the meter, shutter, cocking mechanism, and exposure system from the film camera and you get a functional dSLR with little original design work.

BTW, it should be noted that the original Pentax MZ-D FF dSLR prototype was based directly on the MZ-S film camera.


Steve

* As with the FM10, the Bessa R was derived from the CT-1.

Last edited by stevebrot; 01-08-2017 at 04:24 PM.
01-08-2017, 04:22 PM - 2 Likes   #48
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Since we're thinking outside the box, maybe Pentax could develop a new proprietary memory card that comes in 24 and 36 image sizes. People would purchase them separately and they would only be usable once.

(I'm not sure why Pentaxians insist on living in the past so much)...
01-08-2017, 04:53 PM - 1 Like   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Since we're thinking outside the box, maybe Pentax could develop a new proprietary memory card that comes in 24 and 36 image sizes. People would purchase them separately and they would only be usable once.

(I'm not sure why Pentaxians insist on living in the past so much)...

I want a Pentax sandwich machine that has the ergonomics of a 1x4 piece of lumber and uses full frame bread (texas toast). But no viewfinder.. I want to be surprised.


(I think a segment of the older pentaxians want to relive memories?)

01-08-2017, 05:17 PM - 1 Like   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
You're right

Its original price as Pentax flagship SLR in 2001 was only $1430 USD. Not even close


Steve

(The MZ-S falls short of the K-1 in FPS (2.5 vs 4.4), max shutter speed (1/6000s vs 1/8000s), x-sync (1/180s vs. 1/200s) and AF sensitivity and number of AF points, but was competitive in the day for its feature set, much of which it shares with the K-1. It bests the K-1 in build (magnesium skin over titanium frame), flash metering options, power zoom support, interchangeable screens, built-in flash, and use of the non-crippled KAF2 mount. Some would also argue a preference for the modal controls.)
Nice try, but $1430 adjusted for inflation, that makes $1970 today - the K-1 is cheaper.

Besides, you're comparing apples with potatoes - the K-1 being a DSLR, with its expensive large imaging sensor, on-board computers and all sort of things we're expecting from a modern camera. It's like Pentax managed to pack half a Fujitsu Frontier (i.e. film processing, but not the printing) in there, without increasing the price and not even doubling the weight - isn't this amazing? Yet not a mention about this.
Even the points you're mentioning are debatable. Interchangeable screens vs. LCD overlay, use of the non-crippled KAF2 but requiring the use of aperture rings (and of course no KAF3, KAF4 support)... then the K-1's mechanics are able of at least 6.5fps with the mirror being designed for 100% viewfinders, the shutter can do 1/8000 but is also rated for 300,000 frames, the new SAFOX has advancements like 25 cross-type AF points vs. none on the MZ-S - if you'd remove all 25 cross-type points from the K-1, you'd still have more AF points than the MZ-S - and so on.
The only area where the MZ-S beats the K-1 is - perhaps - the manually lacquered magnesium shell. Not sure if it brings any advantage though.

---------- Post added 09-01-17 at 02:18 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Imp Quote
@Kunzite, yes, I was hoping magically that it could I know it can't possibly work IRL
I'm sorry, there is no magic so Pentax is relying only on hard work and ingenuity.
Though at times they do seems to make miracles happen

Last edited by Kunzite; 01-08-2017 at 05:41 PM.
01-08-2017, 08:13 PM   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
That is why I referenced the EPSON R-D1 and Cosina. It was a minimally modified Voigtlander Bessa R rangefinder transformed into a 6Mpx digital and was the world's first mirrorless ILC. Here is a recent video showing the camera in use:

Unsung Cameras Of Yesteryear: The Epson R-D1 - YouTube

It has been argued that the same could have been done with the Cosina-made Nikon FM10 or any of the K-mount derivatives of the Cosina CT-1 compact film SLR. They all share chassis with the Bessa R*. The sensor and electronics from the R-D1 will quite literally drop into the one of those SLR bodies. After all, what is the difference between rangefinder and SLR 35mm cameras? The rangefinder focus mechanism and mirror box, of course. The Soviets demonstrated this nicely when they created the original Zenit SLR from the Leica-derived Zorki rangefinder. That explains why the first Zenits had 39mm thread mount lenses.

Back to making the digital work. The key is bare bones digital capture. Remove the boards and motors used for AF and motorized drive as well as the big battery to support them and one can use a smaller battery and much smaller form factor. Keep the meter, shutter, cocking mechanism, and exposure system from the film camera and you get a functional dSLR with little original design work.

BTW, it should be noted that the original Pentax MZ-D FF dSLR prototype was based directly on the MZ-S film camera.


Steve

* As with the FM10, the Bessa R was derived from the CT-1.
That epson was a beaut, it deserves the praise it gets. :-) I like your thoughts on this matter.
01-08-2017, 08:58 PM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by btnapa Quote
I disagree. When Canon, Sony, Nikon and Panasonic show up with their latest camera gear and I mean the entire camera hardware offering, then it is geared toward someone who is interested in photography. After all aren't cameras tech gadgets?

BTW, Ricoh has already spent (a bloody fortune) for the space. What was missing was samples of what the K1 can do. That was my point. Ricoh spent probably something well north of $250K to be in a major international show (30% of the 170K attendees come from overseas) and they have tons of empty wall space with hardly any sample images. I have seen tons of stunning images on this very forum, any of which would have made the passerby stop and take a second look. That is the challenge with these shows. Have people pause long enough in front of your booth to notice what else is inside. Canon did it with their best images, Nikon did it. For gods sake even Panasonic did it with images produced with the GH5 which were not that great anyway. K1 images would have stood up with the best of the bunch. Instead we have one great image by Kerick and another non descript hillside shot (only two prints on the wall) and a "sample portfolio" book on the table which looked like it was reproduced on a photocopy machine! The presentation was a disgrace. What a shame, a great opportunity missed... again, just like last year.
I haven't seen any images of the CES booth this year. Are there any reports? As a point of comparison, this is what the CP+ booth has looked like when I have been.

CP+ 2013


CP+ 2015


CP+ 2016


You could argue that they have tried to cram in too much, but there is plenty to see. I don't know why the US or European subsidiaries don't follow the example for CES, Photoplus and Photokina.

Ricoh Japan does exhibit Pentaxians' photos. It's a continuation of something Ricoh used to do, I think. On their website, Ricoh Japan is currently asking for submissions for photos to exhibit through contest, specifying what products and features they want to highlight. The five criteria are:
- Real Resolution
- Astrotracer
- FA Limited
- Photos you could take because of WR
- One more general, "This is what Pentax means to me" category

I think they have a good approach, but I still feel other companies show some more impressive photography at larger sizes. Perhaps this will improve with the bigger booth this year.
01-08-2017, 11:26 PM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Back to making the digital work. The key is bare bones digital capture. Remove the boards and motors used for AF and motorized drive as well as the big battery to support them and one can use a smaller battery and much smaller form factor. Keep the meter, shutter, cocking mechanism, and exposure system from the film camera and you get a functional dSLR with little original design work.
The thing is, manufacturing techniques evolved, outsourcing structure evolved (some parts used to be manufactured by Pentax , and now are outsourced because a third party company can produce it cheaper and it is non strategic), design tools and methods different today than they were 40 years ago. In theory you could think of reusing film era designs, in practice it would cost less to start a new design because of the reuse of existing CAD models (libraries). But, I get the concept of lean design. There is less effort to remote things from an existing design, if it ever made economically sense to simplify the design of the K1, Ricoh could do it. Regarding 36Mpixels versus 24Mpixels, if not about frame rate, it would be rather easy to downsize the raw files from 36Mpixel to 24Mpixels with the same sensor...if the 36Mpixels prevent some people from buying a K1.

01-09-2017, 06:54 AM   #54
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Unless there's a 24mpix sensor that is a drop in replacement for the current 36'er in the K-1, I don't see Ricoh making this a priority, and Pentax engineering staff have better things to do with their time. Can't we just let Nikon chase this sort of low-margin market? There's something else to think about; K-1 pricing puts it in an area where the buyer is probably going to be more interested in spending on lenses. Honest, a cheap 24mpix K-mount full-frame camera is going to attract guys like, well, me. I'd get the 28-105 zoom and then a few used primes and be done buying. How much is Ricoh going to get out of that return on their investment? "40XS sales marginally up, great work team!"
01-09-2017, 07:06 AM   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
(I'm not sure why Pentaxians insist on living in the past so much)...
Because we are in love with the ergonomics of the cameras. Aside from the P3 which used to be my late father in law's (and which my wife will kill me if I break or sell), the last two film cameras out my door - the ones you will have to tear from my cold, dead hands - will be my MX and either the S1a or the ME.
01-09-2017, 07:11 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Since we're thinking outside the box, maybe Pentax could develop a new proprietary memory card that comes in 24 and 36 image sizes. People would purchase them separately and they would only be usable once.

(I'm not sure why Pentaxians insist on living in the past so much)...
That's just stupid. Here's a better idea: make a hand-cranked (battery-less of course) EMP generator that would destroy all DSLRs within a 1/4-mile radius, leaving the field clear for film domination.
01-09-2017, 07:16 AM - 2 Likes   #57
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I think the biggest reason that Pentax isn't going to release a 24 megapixel entry level full frame is that they believe it would steal business from the K-1. And I don't even know how much cheaper it could be. It feels like two or three hundred dollars cheaper is the max decrease you would see with such a release.

On the other hand, I also don't know how many people truly are upset having 36 megapixels and would rather have 24 megapixels if money weren't an object. Every thread where this has been suggested, the underlying motive (along with leaving off video and auto focus, etc) is to decrease the price of the camera into the individual suggesting its budget.
01-09-2017, 07:27 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the biggest reason that Pentax isn't going to release a 24 megapixel entry level full frame is that they believe it would steal business from the K-1. And I don't even know how much cheaper it could be. It feels like two or three hundred dollars cheaper is the max decrease you would see with such a release.

On the other hand, I also don't know how many people truly are upset having 36 megapixels and would rather have 24 megapixels if money weren't an object. Every thread where this has been suggested, the underlying motive (along with leaving off video and auto focus, etc) is to decrease the price of the camera into the individual suggesting its budget.
Rondec: Perhaps faster write speeds and improved high-ISO noise control afforded by a less dense pixel arrangement on the sensor? This is one area where the K-5 II hasn't been bested yet. Probably the only area, but still.

EDIT: OH, I know another area where it seems like the K-5 II hasn't been bested; ergonomics / button placement. K-1 seems crowded to me the brief amount of time I've spent handling one. I really like how my K-5 II is laid out.
01-09-2017, 07:30 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Every thread where this has been suggested, the underlying motive (along with leaving off video and auto focus, etc) is to decrease the price of the camera into the individual suggesting its budget.
There are two broad categories of feature trimmers. One wants to trim enough features out to get it down to the release price of a brand new K3-ii, which is probably the value they assign the camera.

The other is the slash and burn trimmer, who wants to hack everything possible away from the sensor-processor core so as to be able to fit it inside either a K mount or M42 film body shell, with just enough space either side for a battery and a memory card of some description.

Neither is likely to get their way in a hurry. I don't think it'll be that much longer before some independent inventor (maybe even the Lomography crowd) manages to produce a workable version of the long-awaited drop-in cartridge sensor that can be taken out and plugged into some sort of dock for recharging, image download and ISO/image preset assignment. The image need only be as good as the first generation of full-frame sensor; film aficionados everywhere will be content with that.
01-09-2017, 07:46 AM - 1 Like   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
Rondec: Perhaps faster write speeds and improved high-ISO noise control afforded by a less dense pixel arrangement on the sensor? This is one area where the K-5 II hasn't been bested yet. Probably the only area, but still.

EDIT: OH, I know another area where it seems like the K-5 II hasn't been bested; ergonomics / button placement. K-1 seems crowded to me the brief amount of time I've spent handling one. I really like how my K-5 II is laid out.
If you look at the D750 versus the D810, I struggle to see a difference in high iso performance. The idea that limiting megapixels produces cleaner high iso files is questionable. On the other hand, at low iso, the D810 does have more detail. D750 does do 6.5 fps versus the 5 fps the D810 offers. Size of the camera bodies is really similar between them.
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