CES Observations

btnapa · 01-09-2017, 07:58 AM

Originally posted by JPT

I haven't seen any images of the CES booth this year. Are there any reports? As a point of comparison, this is what the CP+ booth has looked like when I have been.

CP+ 2013

CP+ 2015

CP+ 2016

You could argue that they have tried to cram in too much, but there is plenty to see. I don't know why the US or European subsidiaries don't follow the example for CES, Photoplus and Photokina.

Ricoh Japan does exhibit Pentaxians' photos. It's a continuation of something Ricoh used to do, I think. On their website, Ricoh Japan is currently asking for submissions for photos to exhibit through contest, specifying what products and features they want to highlight. The five criteria are:
- Real Resolution
- Astrotracer
- FA Limited
- Photos you could take because of WR
- One more general, "This is what Pentax means to me" category

I think they have a good approach, but I still feel other companies show some more impressive photography at larger sizes. Perhaps this will improve with the bigger booth this year.

NO, it did not look anything like that. The place looked like a ghost town. And this was on a Saturday when the other manufacturer's booth's were literally mobbed. You could not get near the products for a test drive at the Sony and Panasonic booths. Nikon was doing so-so and Canon despite it show of force in visual presentation, was not faring that much better than Pentax either.

I wanted to snap a few phone pics but I did not bother. I was so disappointed. Two or three CES's ago when Kerrick and Joey were there, the set up was totally different and the place was hopping. The place was alive and kicking. I am telling you, a few kick-ass large printed pics made by K1 would have at least given people a reason to come into the booth area. If I were in charge, I would have plastered the place with pics. The other amateurish thing they did was to put a bunch of low-res, sorry-ass sample images running on what looked like a 1080P monitor!!! Please, 4K monitors are so cheap now, everybody is buying it for their homes. Even if they had a 4K monitor, you could not tell because the pics were so bad. Can you imagine showing spectacular K1 images on one or two 70/80 inch 4K monitors would have been show stoppers. CES, more than any show I have ever seen is totally about the visuals. Pentax was lacking so badly, If one had to grade them on presentation, their score would have been a solid F!!

**pres589** · 01-09-2017, 08:08 AM

Yeah, note the question mark at the end there. I don't know if high-ISO noise control is easily pinned on pixel density alone. I think there's more to it than that.

JPT · 01-09-2017, 08:16 AM - **1 Like**

On the low-end FF topic, the price situation looks completely different in Japan. Here are prices extracted from Fujiya Camera, a good indication of the going price for cameras.

D610 120,100 yen
D750 163,500 yen
Df 187,300 yen
D810 243,300 yen
K-1 247,000 yen

Despite this, the K-1 has been selling pretty well, but I'm certain there's space for a model with more modest specs and price with damaging the K-1. I realize the pricing is quite different in the US, and I'm not sure what their thinking is there, but certainly in Japan, a lower-end model would enable Ricoh to compete with the D610/D750 and create a bigger market for the lenses they need to come out with.

Kunzite · 01-09-2017, 08:38 AM - **1 Like**

IMHO Ricoh Imaging cannot compete with the D610, nor with the 6D for that matter - those are 4 years old cameras after all (the D610 is a minor update of a 4 years camera). Perhaps in 3-4 years

The D610 initial price was ¥178,199, while the D750's was 204,000 ¥. In the US, the K-1's launch price was slightly less than that of the D610 and 6D. I see several problems with attempting a cheaper camera:
- it might hurt the K-1's sales (possible solution: do it after having the K-1 replacement ready)
- their lens strategy, without a full range of affordable yet OK lenses and a second hand market it might not work
- their user base might be too small, as cheaper cameras usually require higher volumes to be sustainable (solution: use the K-1 and APS-C to increase the user base)

I'm merely guessing here, but a cheaper K-1 might be the K-1 itself in a few years, or a "K-1 lite" using the K-1's technology in a less expensive shell (and accompanied by a new flagship with improved technology). I'm not seeing this happening this year.

stevebrot · 01-09-2017, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by Rondec

I think the biggest reason that Pentax isn't going to release a 24 megapixel entry level full frame is that they believe it would steal business from the K-1. And I don't even know how much cheaper it could be. It feels like two or three hundred dollars cheaper is the max decrease you would see with such a release.

Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less. For my purposes, the A7II would be my first choice regardless of price, though I can't say that my motivations are typical.

Steve

stevebrot · 01-09-2017, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by JPT

On the low-end FF topic, the price situation looks completely different in Japan. Here are prices extracted from Fujiya Camera, a good indication of the going price for cameras.

D610 120,100 yen
D750 163,500 yen
Df 187,300 yen
D810 243,300 yen
K-1 247,000 yen

Despite this, the K-1 has been selling pretty well, but I'm certain there's space for a model with more modest specs and price with damaging the K-1. I realize the pricing is quite different in the US, and I'm not sure what their thinking is there, but certainly in Japan, a lower-end model would enable Ricoh to compete with the D610/D750 and create a bigger market for the lenses they need to come out with.

Thanks for the very interesting data and analysis.

Steve

Kunzite · 01-09-2017, 11:02 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by stevebrot

Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less.

I guess Sony wouldn't care

cali92rs · 01-09-2017, 01:38 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by pres589

Rondec: Perhaps faster write speeds and improved high-ISO noise control afforded by a less dense pixel arrangement on the sensor? This is one area where the K-5 II hasn't been bested yet. Probably the only area, but still.

EDIT: OH, I know another area where it seems like the K-5 II hasn't been bested; ergonomics / button placement. K-1 seems crowded to me the brief amount of time I've spent handling one. I really like how my K-5 II is laid out.

Make a 13x19" print using both cameras, both shot at ISO6400...I bet the K-5 II print will look noisier

**Rondec** · 01-09-2017, 02:03 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by stevebrot

Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less. For my purposes, the A7II would be my first choice regardless of price, though I can't say that my motivations are typical.

Steve

I don't know. What I do know is that Pentax is a small company and they probably will sell a certain number of cameras. If they have four k mount cameras, those sales will be split four ways. If they have five, they will be split five ways. Sony has a lot higher number of sales and it is reasonable to try to target a lot more price points.

Clearly Pentax was trying for a "jack of all trades" camera with the K-1 and with a price of 1800-ish, it probably hits a pretty sweet price point for what it is. Having an APS-C flagship at 1000 coming this spring wouldn't leave much room for another full frame between there.

**monochrome** · 01-09-2017, 03:09 PM

^^^ Yes, and I think we're pretty lucky to have the K-1 at all.

I think a lot of global effort is going into Theta. I think there are serious structural issues in North America.

**luftfluss** · 01-09-2017, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Rondec

Clearly Pentax was trying for a "jack of all trades" camera with the K-1 and with a price of 1800-ish, it probably hits a pretty sweet price point for what it is. Having an APS-C flagship at 1000 coming this spring wouldn't leave much room for another full frame between there.

I imagine there would be interest in a "de-tuned" K-1: 24MP, single card slot, no articulating LCD, no lamps, no GPS/wifi... just a lean mean picture-making machine. Lower pixel density might allow older glass to shine. Whether or not there's enough interest in such a camera for, say, $1400 to make it a profitable endeavor for Pentax is another story.

biz-engineer · 01-09-2017, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

^^^ Yes, and I think we're pretty lucky to have the K-1 at all.

Yeah but it's not 24Mpixels, even if OOC JPEG can be 22Mpixels, it is still not 24.

surfar · 01-09-2017, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by biz-engineer

it is still not 24.

How many in 1:1 crop mode?

Kunzite · 01-09-2017, 03:46 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by luftfluss

Lower pixel density might allow older glass to shine.

There shouldn't be any advantage in using lower resolution sensors. You might be unable to observe imperfections if you're using a low enough resolution, but that's done by decreasing image quality.

---------- Post added 10-01-17 at 12:53 AM ----------

I was browsing the other site and sure enough, there's an article presenting CES novelties. 29 slides, 2 about Pentax - one about combining a K-1 and a Theta in order to capture low resolution spherical images with high resolution inserts.
Interesting. Adam, if you're there (or you have someone there) do you think it's possible to find out more detail about this?

CES 2017 show highlights: from the weird to the (kind of) wonderful: Digital Photography Review

**luftfluss** · 01-09-2017, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Kunzite

There shouldn't be any advantage in using lower resolution sensors. You might be unable to observe imperfections if you're using a low enough resolution, but that's done by decreasing image quality.

Yes. But there are some pixel-peepers who will be happy, like when the K-3 came out and some people complained that their images didn't have the same 1:1 sharpness as they did on the K-5 series of cameras. Similar to how people observe image noise, they compare at 100% view in Photoshop or whatever, rather than normalize the image size.

Also, lower pixel density might appear more forgiving on soft edges. Again, this is for people who like to view at 100% in Photoshop.

01-09-2017, 08:16 AM - 1 Like	#63
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,821	On the low-end FF topic, the price situation looks completely different in Japan. Here are prices extracted from Fujiya Camera, a good indication of the going price for cameras. D610 120,100 yen D750 163,500 yen Df 187,300 yen D810 243,300 yen K-1 247,000 yen Despite this, the K-1 has been selling pretty well, but I'm certain there's space for a model with more modest specs and price with damaging the K-1. I realize the pricing is quite different in the US, and I'm not sure what their thinking is there, but certainly in Japan, a lower-end model would enable Ricoh to compete with the D610/D750 and create a bigger market for the lenses they need to come out with. Last edited by JPT; 01-09-2017 at 08:27 AM.

01-09-2017, 03:46 PM - 1 Like	#74
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by luftfluss Lower pixel density might allow older glass to shine. There shouldn't be any advantage in using lower resolution sensors. You might be unable to observe imperfections if you're using a low enough resolution, but that's done by decreasing image quality. ---------- Post added 10-01-17 at 12:53 AM ---------- I was browsing the other site and sure enough, there's an article presenting CES novelties. 29 slides, 2 about Pentax - one about combining a K-1 and a Theta in order to capture low resolution spherical images with high resolution inserts. Interesting. Adam, if you're there (or you have someone there) do you think it's possible to find out more detail about this? CES 2017 show highlights: from the weird to the (kind of) wonderful: Digital Photography Review Last edited by Kunzite; 01-09-2017 at 03:53 PM.

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01-09-2017, 07:58 AM	#61
btnapa Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 1,615 Original Poster	Originally posted by JPT I haven't seen any images of the CES booth this year. Are there any reports? As a point of comparison, this is what the CP+ booth has looked like when I have been. CP+ 2013 CP+ 2015 CP+ 2016 You could argue that they have tried to cram in too much, but there is plenty to see. I don't know why the US or European subsidiaries don't follow the example for CES, Photoplus and Photokina. Ricoh Japan does exhibit Pentaxians' photos. It's a continuation of something Ricoh used to do, I think. On their website, Ricoh Japan is currently asking for submissions for photos to exhibit through contest, specifying what products and features they want to highlight. The five criteria are: - Real Resolution - Astrotracer - FA Limited - Photos you could take because of WR - One more general, "This is what Pentax means to me" category I think they have a good approach, but I still feel other companies show some more impressive photography at larger sizes. Perhaps this will improve with the bigger booth this year. NO, it did not look anything like that. The place looked like a ghost town. And this was on a Saturday when the other manufacturer's booth's were literally mobbed. You could not get near the products for a test drive at the Sony and Panasonic booths. Nikon was doing so-so and Canon despite it show of force in visual presentation, was not faring that much better than Pentax either. I wanted to snap a few phone pics but I did not bother. I was so disappointed. Two or three CES's ago when Kerrick and Joey were there, the set up was totally different and the place was hopping. The place was alive and kicking. I am telling you, a few kick-ass large printed pics made by K1 would have at least given people a reason to come into the booth area. If I were in charge, I would have plastered the place with pics. The other amateurish thing they did was to put a bunch of low-res, sorry-ass sample images running on what looked like a 1080P monitor!!! Please, 4K monitors are so cheap now, everybody is buying it for their homes. Even if they had a 4K monitor, you could not tell because the pics were so bad. Can you imagine showing spectacular K1 images on one or two 70/80 inch 4K monitors would have been show stoppers. CES, more than any show I have ever seen is totally about the visuals. Pentax was lacking so badly, If one had to grade them on presentation, their score would have been a solid F!!

01-09-2017, 08:08 AM	#62
pres589 Site Supporter Join Date: Jan 2014 Location: Wichita, KS Photos: Albums Posts: 4,529	Yeah, note the question mark at the end there. I don't know if high-ISO noise control is easily pinned on pixel density alone. I think there's more to it than that.

01-09-2017, 08:38 AM - 1 Like	#64
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	IMHO Ricoh Imaging cannot compete with the D610, nor with the 6D for that matter - those are 4 years old cameras after all (the D610 is a minor update of a 4 years camera). Perhaps in 3-4 years The D610 initial price was ¥178,199, while the D750's was 204,000 ¥. In the US, the K-1's launch price was slightly less than that of the D610 and 6D. I see several problems with attempting a cheaper camera: - it might hurt the K-1's sales (possible solution: do it after having the K-1 replacement ready) - their lens strategy, without a full range of affordable yet OK lenses and a second hand market it might not work - their user base might be too small, as cheaper cameras usually require higher volumes to be sustainable (solution: use the K-1 and APS-C to increase the user base) I'm merely guessing here, but a cheaper K-1 might be the K-1 itself in a few years, or a "K-1 lite" using the K-1's technology in a less expensive shell (and accompanied by a new flagship with improved technology). I'm not seeing this happening this year.

01-09-2017, 10:55 AM	#65
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by Rondec I think the biggest reason that Pentax isn't going to release a 24 megapixel entry level full frame is that they believe it would steal business from the K-1. And I don't even know how much cheaper it could be. It feels like two or three hundred dollars cheaper is the max decrease you would see with such a release. Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less. For my purposes, the A7II would be my first choice regardless of price, though I can't say that my motivations are typical. Steve

01-09-2017, 11:01 AM	#66
stevebrot Otis Memorial Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Vancouver (USA) Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 42,007	Originally posted by JPT On the low-end FF topic, the price situation looks completely different in Japan. Here are prices extracted from Fujiya Camera, a good indication of the going price for cameras. D610 120,100 yen D750 163,500 yen Df 187,300 yen D810 243,300 yen K-1 247,000 yen Despite this, the K-1 has been selling pretty well, but I'm certain there's space for a model with more modest specs and price with damaging the K-1. I realize the pricing is quite different in the US, and I'm not sure what their thinking is there, but certainly in Japan, a lower-end model would enable Ricoh to compete with the D610/D750 and create a bigger market for the lenses they need to come out with. Thanks for the very interesting data and analysis. Steve

01-09-2017, 11:02 AM - 1 Like	#67
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by stevebrot Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less. I guess Sony wouldn't care

01-09-2017, 01:38 PM - 1 Like	#68
cali92rs Veteran Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Long Beach, CA Posts: 3,354	Originally posted by pres589 Rondec: Perhaps faster write speeds and improved high-ISO noise control afforded by a less dense pixel arrangement on the sensor? This is one area where the K-5 II hasn't been bested yet. Probably the only area, but still. EDIT: OH, I know another area where it seems like the K-5 II hasn't been bested; ergonomics / button placement. K-1 seems crowded to me the brief amount of time I've spent handling one. I really like how my K-5 II is laid out. Make a 13x19" print using both cameras, both shot at ISO6400...I bet the K-5 II print will look noisier

01-09-2017, 02:03 PM - 1 Like	#69
Rondec Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Gladys, Virginia Photos: Gallery Posts: 27,653	Originally posted by stevebrot Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less. For my purposes, the A7II would be my first choice regardless of price, though I can't say that my motivations are typical. Steve I don't know. What I do know is that Pentax is a small company and they probably will sell a certain number of cameras. If they have four k mount cameras, those sales will be split four ways. If they have five, they will be split five ways. Sony has a lot higher number of sales and it is reasonable to try to target a lot more price points. Clearly Pentax was trying for a "jack of all trades" camera with the K-1 and with a price of 1800-ish, it probably hits a pretty sweet price point for what it is. Having an APS-C flagship at 1000 coming this spring wouldn't leave much room for another full frame between there.

01-09-2017, 03:09 PM	#70
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	^^^ Yes, and I think we're pretty lucky to have the K-1 at all. I think a lot of global effort is going into Theta. I think there are serious structural issues in North America.

01-09-2017, 03:09 PM	#71
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619	Originally posted by Rondec Clearly Pentax was trying for a "jack of all trades" camera with the K-1 and with a price of 1800-ish, it probably hits a pretty sweet price point for what it is. Having an APS-C flagship at 1000 coming this spring wouldn't leave much room for another full frame between there. I imagine there would be interest in a "de-tuned" K-1: 24MP, single card slot, no articulating LCD, no lamps, no GPS/wifi... just a lean mean picture-making machine. Lower pixel density might allow older glass to shine. Whether or not there's enough interest in such a camera for, say, $1400 to make it a profitable endeavor for Pentax is another story.

01-09-2017, 03:12 PM	#72
biz-engineer Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2015 Photos: Gallery Posts: 12,231	Originally posted by monochrome ^^^ Yes, and I think we're pretty lucky to have the K-1 at all. Yeah but it's not 24Mpixels, even if OOC JPEG can be 22Mpixels, it is still not 24.

01-09-2017, 03:24 PM	#73
surfar Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2015 Location: mid nth coast,nsw Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,141	Originally posted by biz-engineer it is still not 24. How many in 1:1 crop mode?

01-09-2017, 03:54 PM	#75
luftfluss Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: NJ Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 11,619	Originally posted by Kunzite There shouldn't be any advantage in using lower resolution sensors. You might be unable to observe imperfections if you're using a low enough resolution, but that's done by decreasing image quality. Yes. But there are some pixel-peepers who will be happy, like when the K-3 came out and some people complained that their images didn't have the same 1:1 sharpness as they did on the K-5 series of cameras. Similar to how people observe image noise, they compare at 100% view in Photoshop or whatever, rather than normalize the image size. Also, lower pixel density might appear more forgiving on soft edges. Again, this is for people who like to view at 100% in Photoshop.