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01-09-2017, 07:58 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I haven't seen any images of the CES booth this year. Are there any reports? As a point of comparison, this is what the CP+ booth has looked like when I have been.

CP+ 2013


CP+ 2015


CP+ 2016


You could argue that they have tried to cram in too much, but there is plenty to see. I don't know why the US or European subsidiaries don't follow the example for CES, Photoplus and Photokina.

Ricoh Japan does exhibit Pentaxians' photos. It's a continuation of something Ricoh used to do, I think. On their website, Ricoh Japan is currently asking for submissions for photos to exhibit through contest, specifying what products and features they want to highlight. The five criteria are:
- Real Resolution
- Astrotracer
- FA Limited
- Photos you could take because of WR
- One more general, "This is what Pentax means to me" category

I think they have a good approach, but I still feel other companies show some more impressive photography at larger sizes. Perhaps this will improve with the bigger booth this year.
NO, it did not look anything like that. The place looked like a ghost town. And this was on a Saturday when the other manufacturer's booth's were literally mobbed. You could not get near the products for a test drive at the Sony and Panasonic booths. Nikon was doing so-so and Canon despite it show of force in visual presentation, was not faring that much better than Pentax either.

I wanted to snap a few phone pics but I did not bother. I was so disappointed. Two or three CES's ago when Kerrick and Joey were there, the set up was totally different and the place was hopping. The place was alive and kicking. I am telling you, a few kick-ass large printed pics made by K1 would have at least given people a reason to come into the booth area. If I were in charge, I would have plastered the place with pics. The other amateurish thing they did was to put a bunch of low-res, sorry-ass sample images running on what looked like a 1080P monitor!!! Please, 4K monitors are so cheap now, everybody is buying it for their homes. Even if they had a 4K monitor, you could not tell because the pics were so bad. Can you imagine showing spectacular K1 images on one or two 70/80 inch 4K monitors would have been show stoppers. CES, more than any show I have ever seen is totally about the visuals. Pentax was lacking so badly, If one had to grade them on presentation, their score would have been a solid F!!

01-09-2017, 08:08 AM   #62
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Yeah, note the question mark at the end there. I don't know if high-ISO noise control is easily pinned on pixel density alone. I think there's more to it than that.
01-09-2017, 08:16 AM - 1 Like   #63
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On the low-end FF topic, the price situation looks completely different in Japan. Here are prices extracted from Fujiya Camera, a good indication of the going price for cameras.

D610 120,100 yen
D750 163,500 yen
Df 187,300 yen
D810 243,300 yen
K-1 247,000 yen

Despite this, the K-1 has been selling pretty well, but I'm certain there's space for a model with more modest specs and price with damaging the K-1. I realize the pricing is quite different in the US, and I'm not sure what their thinking is there, but certainly in Japan, a lower-end model would enable Ricoh to compete with the D610/D750 and create a bigger market for the lenses they need to come out with.

Last edited by JPT; 01-09-2017 at 08:27 AM.
01-09-2017, 08:38 AM - 1 Like   #64
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IMHO Ricoh Imaging cannot compete with the D610, nor with the 6D for that matter - those are 4 years old cameras after all (the D610 is a minor update of a 4 years camera). Perhaps in 3-4 years
The D610 initial price was 178,199, while the D750's was 204,000 . In the US, the K-1's launch price was slightly less than that of the D610 and 6D. I see several problems with attempting a cheaper camera:
- it might hurt the K-1's sales (possible solution: do it after having the K-1 replacement ready)
- their lens strategy, without a full range of affordable yet OK lenses and a second hand market it might not work
- their user base might be too small, as cheaper cameras usually require higher volumes to be sustainable (solution: use the K-1 and APS-C to increase the user base)

I'm merely guessing here, but a cheaper K-1 might be the K-1 itself in a few years, or a "K-1 lite" using the K-1's technology in a less expensive shell (and accompanied by a new flagship with improved technology). I'm not seeing this happening this year.

01-09-2017, 10:55 AM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the biggest reason that Pentax isn't going to release a 24 megapixel entry level full frame is that they believe it would steal business from the K-1. And I don't even know how much cheaper it could be. It feels like two or three hundred dollars cheaper is the max decrease you would see with such a release.
Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less. For my purposes, the A7II would be my first choice regardless of price, though I can't say that my motivations are typical.


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01-09-2017, 11:01 AM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
On the low-end FF topic, the price situation looks completely different in Japan. Here are prices extracted from Fujiya Camera, a good indication of the going price for cameras.

D610 120,100 yen
D750 163,500 yen
Df 187,300 yen
D810 243,300 yen
K-1 247,000 yen

Despite this, the K-1 has been selling pretty well, but I'm certain there's space for a model with more modest specs and price with damaging the K-1. I realize the pricing is quite different in the US, and I'm not sure what their thinking is there, but certainly in Japan, a lower-end model would enable Ricoh to compete with the D610/D750 and create a bigger market for the lenses they need to come out with.
Thanks for the very interesting data and analysis.


Steve
01-09-2017, 11:02 AM - 1 Like   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less.
I guess Sony wouldn't care
01-09-2017, 01:38 PM - 1 Like   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by pres589 Quote
Rondec: Perhaps faster write speeds and improved high-ISO noise control afforded by a less dense pixel arrangement on the sensor? This is one area where the K-5 II hasn't been bested yet. Probably the only area, but still.

EDIT: OH, I know another area where it seems like the K-5 II hasn't been bested; ergonomics / button placement. K-1 seems crowded to me the brief amount of time I've spent handling one. I really like how my K-5 II is laid out.
Make a 13x19" print using both cameras, both shot at ISO6400...I bet the K-5 II print will look noisier

01-09-2017, 02:03 PM - 1 Like   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by stevebrot Quote
Without actual market research, the degree to which a lower resolution "lite" version FF camera would cannibalize sales is hard to tell. Sony continues to offer the A7RII, A7SII, and A7II with the first two models at the same price point and the A7II at $1000 less. For my purposes, the A7II would be my first choice regardless of price, though I can't say that my motivations are typical.


Steve
I don't know. What I do know is that Pentax is a small company and they probably will sell a certain number of cameras. If they have four k mount cameras, those sales will be split four ways. If they have five, they will be split five ways. Sony has a lot higher number of sales and it is reasonable to try to target a lot more price points.

Clearly Pentax was trying for a "jack of all trades" camera with the K-1 and with a price of 1800-ish, it probably hits a pretty sweet price point for what it is. Having an APS-C flagship at 1000 coming this spring wouldn't leave much room for another full frame between there.
01-09-2017, 03:09 PM   #70
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^^^ Yes, and I think we're pretty lucky to have the K-1 at all.

I think a lot of global effort is going into Theta. I think there are serious structural issues in North America.
01-09-2017, 03:09 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Clearly Pentax was trying for a "jack of all trades" camera with the K-1 and with a price of 1800-ish, it probably hits a pretty sweet price point for what it is. Having an APS-C flagship at 1000 coming this spring wouldn't leave much room for another full frame between there.
I imagine there would be interest in a "de-tuned" K-1: 24MP, single card slot, no articulating LCD, no lamps, no GPS/wifi... just a lean mean picture-making machine. Lower pixel density might allow older glass to shine. Whether or not there's enough interest in such a camera for, say, $1400 to make it a profitable endeavor for Pentax is another story.
01-09-2017, 03:12 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
^^^ Yes, and I think we're pretty lucky to have the K-1 at all.
Yeah but it's not 24Mpixels, even if OOC JPEG can be 22Mpixels, it is still not 24.
01-09-2017, 03:24 PM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
it is still not 24.
How many in 1:1 crop mode?
01-09-2017, 03:46 PM - 1 Like   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by luftfluss Quote
Lower pixel density might allow older glass to shine.
There shouldn't be any advantage in using lower resolution sensors. You might be unable to observe imperfections if you're using a low enough resolution, but that's done by decreasing image quality.

---------- Post added 10-01-17 at 12:53 AM ----------

I was browsing the other site and sure enough, there's an article presenting CES novelties. 29 slides, 2 about Pentax - one about combining a K-1 and a Theta in order to capture low resolution spherical images with high resolution inserts.
Interesting. Adam, if you're there (or you have someone there) do you think it's possible to find out more detail about this?

CES 2017 show highlights: from the weird to the (kind of) wonderful: Digital Photography Review

Last edited by Kunzite; 01-09-2017 at 03:53 PM.
01-09-2017, 03:54 PM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
There shouldn't be any advantage in using lower resolution sensors. You might be unable to observe imperfections if you're using a low enough resolution, but that's done by decreasing image quality.
Yes. But there are some pixel-peepers who will be happy, like when the K-3 came out and some people complained that their images didn't have the same 1:1 sharpness as they did on the K-5 series of cameras. Similar to how people observe image noise, they compare at 100% view in Photoshop or whatever, rather than normalize the image size.

Also, lower pixel density might appear more forgiving on soft edges. Again, this is for people who like to view at 100% in Photoshop.
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