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01-10-2017, 12:31 PM   #91
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just think you release such a camera and you end up stealing sales from the K3-III and K-1 and not generating any new business. Why would someone buy such a camera over a 6D or D610? Particularly considering the current cost and stable of Pentax glass available. From Pentax's standpoint, stealing sales from the K-1 only makes that camera less viable.
From reading this forum and others, I really do think there is a market for a stripped down (but still modern and capable) FF that would not cannibalize too badly high-end APS sales nor mid-tier FF sales. Based on what I've seen, there is a group who want the DR and DoF advantages of FF without the large file sizes and pressure that puts on processing and storage. A small - well, as small as a FF DSLR can get - body with a small grip just begging to be used with the FA primes and wide-to-medium DFA zooms. Some folks would pick it up to use alongside a K-3 II + DFA 150-450.

The question is, is there a large enough market for such a camera to be worth the while for Pentax?

01-10-2017, 12:54 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by Reed Quote
And then out of the blue Tamron comes with new line of SP35/45/85 1.8 primes that are almost zeiss quality in optics.
Since they're not available in K mount, Ricoh could release them under their own name as they did the 15-30 and 24-70.

There is not the same deadline pressure as there was to announce a complete pro setup of zooms to accompany the K-1, but it's an option if the Pentax engineering resources are similarly limited.



01-11-2017, 04:17 AM - 1 Like   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Some people would buy the proposed camera over the 6D and D610 for the same reasons that people are buying the K-1 - they think it's a better camera. Honestly, the thinking behind your post is pretty pessimistic. Your talking like there is a fixed pie of Pentax users that are being cut up between models, which basically means there's no long term future for the brand.

Personally, I do think they have a good chance of grabbing new brand agnostic users as long as they have the right line up. There also seem to be some lapsed Pentaxians returning, and some disgruntled users of other brands being tempted across. Unfortunately, in Japan they have a huge gap between the 90,000 yen K-3ii and the 245,000 yen K-1. That's quite a formidable difference, and it could even put off APS-C Pentax users from staying in the system. When you factor in the most basic lens, the cost of entry into K-mount FF is 300,000 - far more than Canon, Nikon or Sony. I'm not saying the K-1 is bad value, even at the Japanese price, but it's a hell of a lot of camera that many people don't need.

I don't think that would release a cheaper camera to soon, but once the sales of the K-1 start to slow down, it would seem like a good time to introduce a cheaper model.
It is clear that the K-1 has drawn in photographers who are new to Pentax. It offers certain features that aren't offered by any other brands at the moment and has gotten some really good press, in particular as a landscape camera. Many Pentaxians have upgraded to it as well in order to use their old lenses in a full frame sensor.

The question that is really unclear to me is if you strip down the K-1 and put a 24 megapixel sensor in it. Leave out astro tracer and pixel shift and articulating screen on the back, what is going to drawn non-Pentaxians to purchase such a camera? And can Pentax price it sufficiently low to compete with a D610 (1500 dollars new, 1000 dollars used) or the 6D (same pricing as D610). There either has to be some feature that draws users in or the pricing has to be really aggressive (10 percent less than entry level full frames from Canon/Nikon).

I don't question that Pentax could sell a cheaper full frame camera. I just question where those sales come from and if such a camera really builds up the brand.

My guess would be that Pentax eventually comes out with a camera above the K-1 and lowers the price on the K-1 into the 1500/1600 range -- maybe in a couple of years.
01-11-2017, 07:05 AM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
It is clear that the K-1 has drawn in photographers who are new to Pentax. It offers certain features that aren't offered by any other brands at the moment and has gotten some really good press, in particular as a landscape camera. Many Pentaxians have upgraded to it as well in order to use their old lenses in a full frame sensor.

The question that is really unclear to me is if you strip down the K-1 and put a 24 megapixel sensor in it. Leave out astro tracer and pixel shift and articulating screen on the back, what is going to drawn non-Pentaxians to purchase such a camera? And can Pentax price it sufficiently low to compete with a D610 (1500 dollars new, 1000 dollars used) or the 6D (same pricing as D610). There either has to be some feature that draws users in or the pricing has to be really aggressive (10 percent less than entry level full frames from Canon/Nikon).

I don't question that Pentax could sell a cheaper full frame camera. I just question where those sales come from and if such a camera really builds up the brand.

My guess would be that Pentax eventually comes out with a camera above the K-1 and lowers the price on the K-1 into the 1500/1600 range -- maybe in a couple of years.
I think we have quite different opinions about this because in a way we are talking at cross purposes. I'm talking about what I observe in Japan, which is clearly quite different to the USA. The pricing of these cameras is very different, consumer behavior is different and the stature of Pentax as a brand is different.

What I see is Ricoh selling the K-1 at prices close to the Canon and Nikon cameras that are similar in spec. The fact that they can do this makes it unlikely that they will suddenly start undercutting them, like they are doing in the USA. So I see a place for a cheaper model to target the same people that Canon and Nikon target with the 6D and D610.

I wrote my comment earlier on my lunch break. As I was walking back to the office, I saw a group of students taking photos with a D610. It struck me that to that student the D610 is probably the modern equivalent of what the K1000 was to a lot of Pentaxians back in the 70s/80s. It's a basic but capable tool to learn on. If he looked at the Pentax line up now, he could not have got a camera in the same format for anywhere close to that price.

01-11-2017, 09:36 AM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think we have quite different opinions about this because in a way we are talking at cross purposes. I'm talking about what I observe in Japan, which is clearly quite different to the USA. The pricing of these cameras is very different, consumer behavior is different and the stature of Pentax as a brand is different.

What I see is Ricoh selling the K-1 at prices close to the Canon and Nikon cameras that are similar in spec. The fact that they can do this makes it unlikely that they will suddenly start undercutting them, like they are doing in the USA. So I see a place for a cheaper model to target the same people that Canon and Nikon target with the 6D and D610.

I wrote my comment earlier on my lunch break. As I was walking back to the office, I saw a group of students taking photos with a D610. It struck me that to that student the D610 is probably the modern equivalent of what the K1000 was to a lot of Pentaxians back in the 70s/80s. It's a basic but capable tool to learn on. If he looked at the Pentax line up now, he could not have got a camera in the same format for anywhere close to that price.
I don't understand the Japanese market. Why would Ricoh choose to sell the K-1 at 245,000 yen when they are selling it at 209,000 yen in the US?

But certainly they can put another model into place if they think they can handle the production numbers and it won't steal sales from the other cameras in their line up.
01-11-2017, 10:30 AM - 2 Likes   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by Reed Quote
And then out of the blue Tamron comes with new line of SP35/45/85 1.8 primes that are almost zeiss quality in optics. But I don't think it was Mr. Hirakawa work, but you can still sense his "design ethics" in these lenses
Curiously, I don't sense much of Hirakawa's "design ethics" in any of Tamron's lenses, regardless of whether Hirakawa may have been involved in their design or not. Tamron has its own design ethics that differs in some respects from Pentax's. Essentially, Tamron is an economy brand. They attempt to make lenses that perform nearly as well as Canikon equivalents but at a significantly lower price point. The Tamron primes may seem rather pricey for economy lenses, but that's because they're chasing rather lofty numerical spec goals. Of course they're superb lenses, and in terms of sheer numerical specs, may be a tad better than the FA limiteds, but they're not attempting to achieve the special rendering goals of Hirakawa's Pentax inspirations. The Tamrons are fully modern lenses designed for high resolution digital cameras, whereas the limiteds are proudly old-fashioned throw-back lenses, sans focus motors, VR, and WR. The FA Limiteds weren't even designed for digital cameras, and it sometimes shows.

It's one thing to use Tamron for some of their zooms, but I don't see Pentax using any other lens maker for its primes. Zooms involve optical compromises that affect the character of the rendering, so Pentax can live with non-Pentax designs for zooms. I don't see that happening with primes. Pentax will use its primes to demonstrate its image-centric (in terms of subjective human perception) lens design philosophy. Hence we won't see any Tamron rebadges among the primes.
01-11-2017, 10:59 AM   #97
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While I don't have any personal experience with these Tamrons, indeed I wouldn't call them Limited-like. They are rather large-ish lenses designed to look good in tests (without being overly expensive)
Which might be ironic, if Mr. Hirakawa indeed left Pentax because he didn't want to design such lenses.

As for Pentax rebadging Tamron primes, somewhere on pentax.com (I think), in one of the images there one could see one or two prime-looking lenses which aren't any of the current products. Hint: Pentax engineers won't talk about the 15-30 nor about the 24-70, because they didn't designed those.
01-11-2017, 11:13 AM   #98
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In fact, I dont judge that new Tamron primes designs by "test charts and numbers" but for how they behave in real world usage. They are weather sealed,have great silent AF, somthing of 3D pop/pixie dust is also present. I had chance to play a bit with 85 and 45 primes on canon camera- simply stunning images and state of art design, they don't come anything short in terms of manufacture quality... Don't forget Mr.Hirakawa works are not limited to Limited lenses, for example FA* 85/1.4.

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