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07-15-2017, 12:47 AM   #376
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do you still have through the lens viewing with mirror-less camera- how do you focus ?

07-15-2017, 12:52 AM   #377
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
What is the difference between a decision and what you are calling an observation?

Also why don't the analogies work? You made a blanket statement about them all not working, but why not?
You can decide to take a certain camera with you on a trip, but when reaching the destination, you can only observe that the battery is empty, and you have no spare.

I certainly didn't make any blanket statement about them all not working. I said "more often than not", which means there are instances in which they do work.
The reason is simple: often, an analogy is made only to argue about a more convenient subject than the actual one - without any care about relevance and similarity. For example, from Ricoh Imaging's interview statements to Nostradamus' supposed predictions; or the much abused chariots vs cars - and film vs digital - which are used to promote any technology deemed as "modern" and "new" over existing ones.
07-15-2017, 12:56 AM   #378
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Thanks for the info Mee, I appreciate it. have a good day

---------- Post added 07-15-17 at 03:03 AM ----------

I want to thank all that responded to my question on lenses, I also like all the camera info.
07-15-2017, 01:13 AM - 1 Like   #379
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
He's right - there is no "hype train", simply the statement of very clear tendancies in the industry and amongst users. Mirrorless technology has massive benefits which will, as the technology advances, make OVFs and SLRs seem redundant. DSLRs maintain their lead by their advantage of having had more time to develop their technology and by CaNikon having most people, who don't look into it themselves, convinced that the only way to get serious performance and IQ is to buy a DSLR. That is the only thing that could accurately be described as a "hype train" in the modern camera industry.
Yes, that's how it works: by disguising hype as "statement of very clear tendancies in the industry and amongst users". They never admit it's hype, they might not even know it.
Exaggerating the benefits ("massive"?) is the textbook definition of hype.

07-15-2017, 03:17 AM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
He's right - there is no "hype train", simply the statement of very clear tendancies in the industry and amongst users. Mirrorless technology has massive benefits which will, as the technology advances, make OVFs and SLRs seem redundant. DSLRs maintain their lead by their advantage of having had more time to develop their technology and by CaNikon having most people, who don't look into it themselves, convinced that the only way to get serious performance and IQ is to buy a DSLR. That is the only thing that could accurately be described as a "hype train" in the modern camera industry.

When I bought my K200D I could see that it was clearly better than the competition, and the same goes for my K3 when I upgraded. Now that the market has advanced it is becoming ever more clear that mirrorless cameras will soon be better than the competition. They would be already were it not for the fact that Sony's incompetence is restraining their FF mirrorless cameras and the smaller sensor players (Fuji, Oly, Panasonic etc) are over-charging for theirs (presumably because they know they're better than equivalent DSLRs, but still...).

I love my K3 & limited lenses, but there's no way I'd buy into a DSLR system if I were starting from scratch now. All the DSLR players survive because people are invested in their systems, not because their systems are intrinsically better. As new photographers come along I believe that good sense will eventually prevail over what the CaNikon reps shove down people's throats and mirrorless will grow until SLRs are virtually gone.
I would say that it is pretty clear that mirrorless cameras and SLRs are very similar. If, you are primarily a prime shooter (as you are) and don't mind manual focusing, then mirrorless ILCs do offer some advantages. Otherwise, for the average photographer, shooting landscapes, portraits, snap shots of their family, while using auto focus, the end results will be very similar. This is with the caveat that older generation mirrorless cameras probably are worse with regard to auto focus than SLRs from a couple of generations ago.

From a "hype" stand point, it really feels as though Sony and Fuji have paid photographers who release video reviews and diatribes every time they release a new piece of gear to say how this is the most amazing thing ever and in Fuji's case, to say how this camera makes full frame unnecessary.

It gets old. These are cameras. They are more limited by their users than by the technology they hold and every one of them -- SLR and mirrorless alike -- is quite capable of producing good images. The idea that you took poor photos with you D7000 but now you bought a Sony A7r and suddenly your images magically improve is not reality. What will happen is you will be able to print roughly the same images at a bigger size and with a little more clarity. But they will still be the same sort of images.
07-15-2017, 03:33 AM   #381
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Repeat: a mirrorless camera is a camera without an optical viewfinder. There is no mirrorless technology. Removing features do not require new technology. Adding features does.
07-15-2017, 03:45 AM   #382
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Yes, we all know how Leica as an other "niche player", has made rangefinder his own success for at least 50 following years.
It's a way of presenting things. All rangefinder camera makers, but one (Leica) stopped producing rangefinder cameras or simply disappeared.

Leica, or rather Leitz as their name was at that time, had a diversified production: rangefinder cameras, SLR cameras, microscopes, binoculars, riflescopes, geosurvey equipment and more. They struggled a lot from the mid-eighties onwards, merging with Wild Heerbrugg, then being split into three separate companies, the camera company abandoning their SLR activity, raising fresh money from Hermes,...

Leica Camera almost went belly up at the beginning of the millennium but were saved by a man, Dr Andreas Kaufmann, who invested almost all his family's money (obtained from the sale of the family assets in the paper industry) and succeeded in turning around the moribund Leica Camera in transforming them from a camera and lens company into a luxury company.

But Leica Camera are still, in their own way, a diversified company: they sell rangefinder cameras but also high-end compact cameras, mirrorless cameras, both APS-C and 24x36, medium format DSLR cameras, instant cameras, cinema lenses, binoculars, spotting scopes, riflescopes, golf rangefinders,... They are a diversified niche player and a luxury brand with the prices and margins this luxury status gives them access to.

Setting aside the fact that Pentax as a brand is far less diversified than Leica Camera is as a company, one could imagine a wealthy, astute and obstinate Korean heir doing for the Pentax brand what Dr Kaufmann (who is wealthy, astute, obstinate and Austrian, not German) did for Leica.

I'm sure many people on this forum would be thrilled by the perspective of Pentax being invigorated, investing a lot in new factories, tools, products and dedicated stores, launching new product lines (such as mirrorless cameras ) and more generally becoming the Asian Leica.

Would they be equally thrilled if the price of the K-1's successor, or its successor's successor, went up to $6,895 with 24x36 prime lenses being priced between $1,445 and $10,995?
07-15-2017, 04:17 AM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote

I'm sure many people on this forum would be thrilled by the perspective of Pentax being invigorated, investing a lot in new factories, tools, products and dedicated stores, launching new product lines (such as mirrorless cameras ) and more generally becoming the Asian Leica.

Would they be equally thrilled if the price of the K-1's successor, or its successor's successor, went up to $6,895 with 24x36 prime lenses being priced between $1,445 and $10,995?
It is impossible because Asahi, Pentax and Hoya never invested in cherishing Pentax legacy — apart from keeping the K-mount. Not sure what Ricoh does now, they seem to dabble a little, but that is all superficial. There are no books on photographers who used Pentax, there are no Pentax galleries of masterpieces, no continuation of legacy lens names and camera names , like Leica does with its Luxes, Noctiluxes, and Crons, the entire M series. Leica has a talent to turn each product line into an icon. Just watch, the SL, the TL, they do it remarkably well.

On the other hand, Pentax is a Japanese analogy of a people's camera, that was meant to be sold everywhere. When something is meant for everybody, it is meant for nobody in particular. So while everyone remembers Pentax from somewhere, and the value of memory is high, not a single owner of that brand cashes on it by further investing into it. That never changes.

That is why I wrote a while ago, that it would be best if old names are used again, and for premium lenses Takumar designation resurrected. That is heritage, and a great one. But there is no snowball chance in hell that managers who never worked for the company would thought of that. If they had, then the K-1 would have been delivered earlier too, and Pentax own lenses for it, not Tamrom rebadges. But they don't understand it to invest just a little into it, and reap revenues in the long run.

So the saga goes as it always did — Pentax is a people's camera, which means, nobody's in particular camera brand. And users are far more passionate about it than Pentax corporate owners. Users invest all their passions, and learning, and talent, while Pentax corporate owners invest a bare minimum. It was always like that, nothing has ever changed.


Last edited by BigMackCam; 07-15-2017 at 05:38 AM. Reason: Inflammatory
07-15-2017, 04:25 AM - 1 Like   #384
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
It's a way of presenting things. All rangefinder camera makers, but one (Leica) stopped producing rangefinder cameras or simply disappeared.

Leica, or rather Leitz as their name was at that time, had a diversified production: rangefinder cameras, SLR cameras, microscopes, binoculars, riflescopes, geosurvey equipment and more. They struggled a lot from the mid-eighties onwards, merging with Wild Heerbrugg, then being split into three separate companies, the camera company abandoning their SLR activity, raising fresh money from Hermes,...

Leica Camera almost went belly up at the beginning of the millennium but were saved by a man, Dr Andreas Kaufmann, who invested almost all his family's money (obtained from the sale of the family assets in the paper industry) and succeeded in turning around the moribund Leica Camera in transforming them from a camera and lens company into a luxury company.

But Leica Camera are still, in their own way, a diversified company: they sell rangefinder cameras but also high-end compact cameras, mirrorless cameras, both APS-C and 24x36, medium format DSLR cameras, instant cameras, cinema lenses, binoculars, spotting scopes, riflescopes, golf rangefinders,... They are a diversified niche player and a luxury brand with the prices and margins this luxury status gives them access to.

Setting aside the fact that Pentax as a brand is far less diversified than Leica Camera is as a company, one could imagine a wealthy, astute and obstinate Korean heir doing for the Pentax brand what Dr Kaufmann (who is wealthy, astute, obstinate and Austrian, not German) did for Leica.

I'm sure many people on this forum would be thrilled by the perspective of Pentax being invigorated, investing a lot in new factories, tools, products and dedicated stores, launching new product lines (such as mirrorless cameras ) and more generally becoming the Asian Leica.

Would they be equally thrilled if the price of the K-1's successor, or its successor's successor, went up to $6,895 with 24x36 prime lenses being priced between $1,445 and $10,995?
I think people would like a mixture of products -- some consumer and some premium quality. I think it is expected that the DFA * primes will be in the 1500 dollar range or slightly higher. If Pentax chose to release another full frame camera priced between the K-1 and 645z that would be reasonable as well, albeit it should offer something more for that price.

Leica clearly has a premium name, a little like Zeiss and chooses to sell their products for what they can get for them, which is a lot. Pentax isn't going to be able to do that, but it certainly wouldn't hurt if they worked to get a line up of premium lenses that made a name in the market place as being special -- much like the FA limiteds did back in their day.
07-15-2017, 04:29 AM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
a mirrorless camera is a camera without an optical viewfinder.
A mirrorless camera is a camera without a mirror in the optical path. SLT's don't have a OVF but do have a mirror. Fuji X-pro1/2 do have a OVF but no mirror.
07-15-2017, 04:37 AM   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by elf photo Quote
do you still have through the lens viewing with mirror-less camera- how do you focus ?
Yes you do. You look at the scene captured through the lens by the imaging sensor, either on the rear LCD or thanks to a dedicated electronic viewfinder.

Autofocus is done by the imaging sensor. It's either a contrast-detection autofocus, like in compact cameras, or a combination of on-sensor phase-detection and contrast-detection autofocus.
07-15-2017, 04:38 AM   #387
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QuoteOriginally posted by photoptimist Quote
Exactly! And Pentax's unique attributes for mirrorless are non-existant.

But there will always be some percent of the market that wants more or can't stand EVFs.
Count me in for that. I can't stand EVF. At 54 and a person who can't read without reading glasses I need to see the natural view. Don't get me wrong, I think EVFs are the future. But I think there will be a market of OVF users. In five years and 2 months I'll be 60. So I'll be a senior citizen and I have every right to be grumpy and I have every right to say, "Don't take away my OVF!"
07-15-2017, 04:44 AM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
It's a way of presenting things. All rangefinder camera makers, but one (Leica) stopped producing rangefinder cameras or simply disappeared.

Leica, or rather Leitz as their name was at that time, had a diversified production: rangefinder cameras, SLR cameras, microscopes, binoculars, riflescopes, geosurvey equipment and more. They struggled a lot from the mid-eighties onwards, merging with Wild Heerbrugg, then being split into three separate companies, the camera company abandoning their SLR activity, raising fresh money from Hermes,...

Leica Camera almost went belly up at the beginning of the millennium but were saved by a man, Dr Andreas Kaufmann, who invested almost all his family's money (obtained from the sale of the family assets in the paper industry) and succeeded in turning around the moribund Leica Camera in transforming them from a camera and lens company into a luxury company.

But Leica Camera are still, in their own way, a diversified company: they sell rangefinder cameras but also high-end compact cameras, mirrorless cameras, both APS-C and 24x36, medium format DSLR cameras, instant cameras, cinema lenses, binoculars, spotting scopes, riflescopes, golf rangefinders,... They are a diversified niche player and a luxury brand with the prices and margins this luxury status gives them access to.

Setting aside the fact that Pentax as a brand is far less diversified than Leica Camera is as a company, one could imagine a wealthy, astute and obstinate Korean heir doing for the Pentax brand what Dr Kaufmann (who is wealthy, astute, obstinate and Austrian, not German) did for Leica.

I'm sure many people on this forum would be thrilled by the perspective of Pentax being invigorated, investing a lot in new factories, tools, products and dedicated stores, launching new product lines (such as mirrorless cameras ) and more generally becoming the Asian Leica.

Would they be equally thrilled if the price of the K-1's successor, or its successor's successor, went up to $6,895 with 24x36 prime lenses being priced between $1,445 and $10,995?
Pentax "Far more diversified (than Leica)" doesn't hold if you include Ricoh's other product lines....
Plus "niche player" doesn't equal to "luxury products".
So conviction changes depending on the view-point you choose.
07-15-2017, 04:49 AM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
It is impossible because Asahi, Pentax and Hoya never invested in cherishing Pentax legacy — (...)
By the way, you made me remember that the Asahi Pentax, the second Japanese SLR with pentaprism and the first from Asahi Optical Co., was launched in May 1957. I haven't heard of any commemoration of its 60th anniversary by Ricoh Imaging. Did I miss something?

---------- Post added 07-15-2017 at 01:58 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Pentax "Far more diversified (than Leica)" doesn't hold if you include Ricoh's other product lines....
Plus "niche player" doesn't equal to "luxury products".
So conviction changes depending on the view-point you choose.
Diversification: we were speaking of Pentax and the possibility for Pentax to remain in the camera business as a pure, niche DSLR player, without entering the mirrorless segment and, implicitly, at least on my side, without being subsidised by the other Ricoh divisions / product lines.

Equation: niche player (and low volumes) plus quite high (fixed) R&D costs implies high unit margins (margin on variable costs), which are easier to achieve when you are perceived as a luxury company than when you are simply considered as a camera company. This is how Leica Camera managed to survive (and grow) under Dr Kaufmann's guidance.

Ricoh are apparently trying to drag the Pentax brand into high-end, if not luxury, territory: f/2.8 zooms, f/1.4 primes, dedicated stores (see the other thread opened by JPT) and so on.
07-15-2017, 05:09 AM   #390
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Pentax is moving upmarket. It started in 1996 with the 43 Limited, a test of how luxurious Pentax items were received in the market. It has slowly continued ever since. Expect the K-1 to be the entry level FF camera.
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