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07-15-2017, 05:33 AM - 2 Likes   #391
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jonathan Mac Quote
He's right - there is no "hype train", simply the statement of very clear tendancies in the industry and amongst users. Mirrorless technology has massive benefits which will, as the technology advances, make OVFs and SLRs seem redundant. DSLRs maintain their lead by their advantage of having had more time to develop their technology and by CaNikon having most people, who don't look into it themselves, convinced that the only way to get serious performance and IQ is to buy a DSLR. That is the only thing that could accurately be described as a "hype train" in the modern camera industry.

When I bought my K200D I could see that it was clearly better than the competition, and the same goes for my K3 when I upgraded. Now that the market has advanced it is becoming ever more clear that mirrorless cameras will soon be better than the competition. They would be already were it not for the fact that Sony's incompetence is restraining their FF mirrorless cameras and the smaller sensor players (Fuji, Oly, Panasonic etc) are over-charging for theirs (presumably because they know they're better than equivalent DSLRs, but still...).

I love my K3 & limited lenses, but there's no way I'd buy into a DSLR system if I were starting from scratch now. All the DSLR players survive because people are invested in their systems, not because their systems are intrinsically better. As new photographers come along I believe that good sense will eventually prevail over what the CaNikon reps shove down people's throats and mirrorless will grow until SLRs are virtually gone.
Yet all your comments are based around your perceptions of what you want and like in a camera.

The fact that you seem to think that mirrorless is still inferior today to DSLRs tells me there is indeed a lot of hype with mirrorless today. Because why would any one vote with their wallet on buying something inferior simply on the fact that it is perceived to be somehow 'better' in the future? That's a textbook example of hype!

The reality is there is room for both DSLRs and mirrorless ILCs in the market. Mirrorless 'technology' does not intrinsically make for a better system. It is just another system. The issue is, you've drank the mirrorless koolaid so you can't see the fact that mirrorless camera manufacturers and fans have hyped mirrorless as THE way forward (as if there is a single path). As a result, you're telling us there is no reason to buy a DSLR today over mirrorless.

What you have is a smartphone or a tablet fan telling us desktop computers are outdated and on the way out, due to the 'very clear tendencies in the industry' to to move to shrinking the hardware and making it more portable. Desktops are big, kludgy, energy inefficient, not easily portable, won't fit in pocket, require an external output and input devices. Practically dinosaurs to my sleek smartphone or tablet device.

But that misses the fact that some people simply prefer the desktop experience over what a smartphone or tablet computing device can offer.

Talking heads and smartphone fans for years have been talking the demise of the desktop. "Soon we won't see desktop PCs anymore. Gone but from history." I've read for the past 10 years now. Ok but I'm typing this on desktop from home, I work on a desktop in the office. They'd didn't just magically disappear with the advent and adoption of the smartphone or tablet device.

The same goes for mirrorless ILCs versus DSLRs.

Sure DSLR's are older, it doesn't mean they are inferior or outdated relics of history. There is a strange notion online that new = better across the board. Yet no one can prove mirrorless ILCs are better across the board compared to DSLRs. Some people will simply prefer the DSLR experience over the Mirrorless one.

07-15-2017, 05:46 AM   #392
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QuoteOriginally posted by elf photo Quote
do you still have through the lens viewing with mirror-less camera- how do you focus ?
It depends on the mirrorless camera. Some come with an EVF (Electronic ViewFinder) that behaves somewhat like an OVF (Optical ViewFinder) found on a DSLR -- just put your eye close to the viewfinder. Other mirrorless cameras do not come with a viewfinder and one simply uses the back LCD screen to focus (which can be difficult in bright lighting conditions) generally extended out from their body.

EVFs come with their own issues, mainly in refresh rates. Because an EVF is essentially a tiny LCD screen that replays what the sensor 'sees' back through the viewfinder. As a result, there is a bit of latency in the camera outputting the data from sensor to viewfinder. This is or is not an issue depending on your personal opinion (after using them).

EVFs has what some would call and advantage though in that it can show you what the camera sees in terms of exposure -- What you see is what you get. That can make it easier to adjust the camera settings to take a proper exposure. You might see some grainyness in dark scenes though. That, again, may or may not be an issue for you depending on your personal opinion after using and experience it.

The technology on EVFs is improving though from even models only a few years old. But it is still down to personal preference on whether or not Mirrorless cameras are right for you.
07-15-2017, 07:19 AM   #393
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Yet all your comments are based around your perceptions of what you want and like in a camera.

The fact that you seem to think that mirrorless is still inferior today to DSLRs tells me there is indeed a lot of hype with mirrorless today. Because why would any one vote with their wallet on buying something inferior simply on the fact that it is perceived to be somehow 'better' in the future? That's a textbook example of hype!

The reality is there is room for both DSLRs and mirrorless ILCs in the market. Mirrorless 'technology' does not intrinsically make for a better system. It is just another system. The issue is, you've drank the mirrorless koolaid so you can't see the fact that mirrorless camera manufacturers and fans have hyped mirrorless as THE way forward (as if there is a single path). As a result, you're telling us there is no reason to buy a DSLR today over mirrorless.

What you have is a smartphone or a tablet fan telling us desktop computers are outdated and on the way out, due to the 'very clear tendencies in the industry' to to move to shrinking the hardware and making it more portable. Desktops are big, kludgy, energy inefficient, not easily portable, won't fit in pocket, require an external output and input devices. Practically dinosaurs to my sleek smartphone or tablet device.

But that misses the fact that some people simply prefer the desktop experience over what a smartphone or tablet computing device can offer.

Talking heads and smartphone fans for years have been talking the demise of the desktop. "Soon we won't see desktop PCs anymore. Gone but from history." I've read for the past 10 years now. Ok but I'm typing this on desktop from home, I work on a desktop in the office. They'd didn't just magically disappear with the advent and adoption of the smartphone or tablet device.

The same goes for mirrorless ILCs versus DSLRs.

Sure DSLR's are older, it doesn't mean they are inferior or outdated relics of history. There is a strange notion online that new = better across the board. Yet no one can prove mirrorless ILCs are better across the board compared to DSLRs. Some people will simply prefer the DSLR experience over the Mirrorless one.
Basic issue is survival. Pentax is a marginal player in a declining market, and that decline may steepen sharply when Canon and Nikon start issuing serious mirrorless cameras. DSLRs will be made and sold for many years to come and today they are still easily the most substantial camera market but for a player with less than 5 per cent of the market in 2017 there may not be enough demand in future to remain viable. The question is the risk to shareholder capital for Ricoh between change/diversify or eventually exit the market through sale or closure as demand runs down. It's the Kodak dilemma. That's really all this is about. All the tech talk is a diversion. Unfortunately fixed positions from the userbase make sensible discussion of this almost impossible. Several camera-makers face similar questions. It's much more rationally addressed on other forums. View on here seems to amount to "No diversification from DSLRs; little new investment needed and none forthcoming anyway; sticker prices for bodies to remain cheap as chips (even or especially when "the Leica of Japan" is suggested). Not much reflection needed to see this doesn't exactly add up

Last edited by mecrox; 07-15-2017 at 07:28 AM.
07-15-2017, 07:54 AM   #394
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Basic issue is survival. Pentax is a marginal player in a declining market, and that decline may steepen sharply when Canon and Nikon start issuing serious mirrorless cameras. DSLRs will be made and sold for many years to come and today they are still easily the most substantial camera market but for a player with less than 5 per cent of the market in 2017 there may not be enough demand in future to remain viable. The question is the risk to shareholder capital for Ricoh between change/diversify or eventually exit the market through sale or closure as demand runs down. It's the Kodak dilemma. That's really all this is about. All the tech talk is a diversion. Unfortunately fixed positions from the userbase make sensible discussion of this almost impossible. Several camera-makers face similar questions. It's much more rationally addressed on other forums. View on here seems to amount to "No diversification from DSLRs; little new investment needed and none forthcoming anyway; sticker prices for bodies to remain cheap as chips (even or especially when "the Leica of Japan" is suggested). Not much reflection needed to see this doesn't exactly add up
And Pentax has less then 1 % marketshare in dslr worldwide.

07-15-2017, 07:56 AM   #395
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Basic issue is survival. Pentax is a marginal player in a declining market
Is this correct? And what do you mean by "declining" ?

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
, and that decline may steepen sharply when Canon and Nikon start issuing serious mirrorless cameras. DSLRs will be made and sold for many years to come and today they are still easily the most substantial camera market but for a player with less than 5 per cent of the market in 2017 there may not be enough demand in future to remain viable.
Perhaps. This is assuming Ricoh either stay at 5 percent of the market in the future or decline from that. It is also assuming there won't be a demand in the future for DSLRs. But they could actually grow..

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
The question is the risk to shareholder capital for Ricoh between change/diversify or eventually exit the market through sale or closure as demand runs down. It's the Kodak dilemma. That's really all this is about. All the tech talk is a diversion. Unfortunately fixed positions from the userbase make sensible discussion of this almost impossible. Several camera-makers face similar questions. It's much more rationally addressed on other forums. View on here seems to amount to "No diversification from DSLRs; little new investment needed and none forthcoming anyway; sticker prices for bodies to remain cheap as chips (even or especially when "the Leica of Japan" is suggested). Not much reflection needed to see this doesn't exactly add up
I'm not sure this is really similar to Kodak. Essentially Kodak failed because they didn't adapt from the analog to digital market shift quick enough. And their answers were in small, cheap point and shoots largely. Once smartphones started taking over P+S's, they had no where to go.

But, again, that is assuming the entire market shifts. In this case from DSLRs to mirrorless ILCs. That remains to be seen. I don't see that happening, the two (analog to digital versus dslr to mirrorless) aren't exactly the same. What I do see happening is an increase in mirrorless systems offered as years go by. But DSLRs aren't going away entirely.. even 20 years from now I suspect we'll see rather advanced DSLRs on the market.

If I understand you correctly you disagree with this view, think mirrorless is the only future for cameras, and thus Ricoh putting all their eggs in the DSLR basket is a recipe for disaster. We just disagree that's all.

I think what you mean by "fixed positions from the userbase" is "we do not agree with you" so somehow we cannot have a "sensible discussion." wow.
07-15-2017, 08:10 AM - 1 Like   #396
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The driving force behind mirrorless cameras is manufacturing efficiency, which substitutes process engineering skill and capital for human assembly. There's very little hardware inventiveness or new technology. The inventiveness is in software and process.

The consumer product benefits are mere marketing points, wherein a 'need' (small; EVF preview) was created, then satisfied. The ergonomics are awful. The QC has been shown to be suspect. Beautiful packaging adds a brand status element (since selling a camera system long-term is universally an adult toy business) that has nothing to do with images.

The business of the ILC camera business will eventually move the products to mirrorless. The unknown for Pentax is whether Ricoh will invest manufacturing process expertise and capital in a small market share consumer product when the declared automotive products seem to have so much more potential (machine vision is the next industrial technology wave).

Last edited by monochrome; 07-15-2017 at 08:21 AM.
07-15-2017, 08:50 AM   #397
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QuoteOriginally posted by RonHendriks1966 Quote
And Pentax has less then 1 % marketshare in dslr worldwide.
I wonder about that... the initial production volume of the K-1 alone corresponds to slightly more than 1% DSLR market share.
07-15-2017, 08:57 AM   #398
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Do we really care about marketshare when it is all about product efficiency and business balance ?

---------- Post added 15-07-17 at 08:59 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote

Diversification: we were speaking of Pentax and the possibility for Pentax to remain in the camera business as a pure, niche DSLR player, without entering the mirrorless segment and, implicitly, at least on my side, without being subsidised by the other Ricoh divisions / product lines.

Equation: niche player (and low volumes) plus quite high (fixed) R&D costs implies high unit margins (margin on variable costs), which are easier to achieve when you are perceived as a luxury company than when you are simply considered as a camera company. This is how Leica Camera managed to survive (and grow) under Dr Kaufmann's guidance.

Ricoh are apparently trying to drag the Pentax brand into high-end, if not luxury, territory: f/2.8 zooms, f/1.4 primes, dedicated stores (see the other thread opened by JPT) and so on.
Which according to what they declared seems quite making sense : they spoke about "premium" products.


Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-15-2017 at 09:03 AM.
07-15-2017, 09:53 AM   #399
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The business of the ILC camera business will eventually move the products to mirrorless.
I'm not so sure this is inevitable, the cost of building a camera is not a barrier to selling ILCs and it is more expensive to replace the advantages of DSLRs (optical viewfinders, PDAF) with mirrorless analogues than to leave mirrors in ILCs.
QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Beautiful packaging adds a brand status element (since selling a camera system long-term is universally an adult toy business) that has nothing to do with images.
The long term photography business is in selling tools for adults to engage in an anachronistic craft, not to play with shiny new toys that only get used for the duration of their owners' shrinking attention spans. Images are a necessary feedback mechanism for standalone camera owners to validate the effort they put into the craft of photography. The merits of those images may be of secondary importance, but absolutely no one takes pictures without the intention of looking at them later.

Regarding the end of life for the K-3ii, my guess is that there are a couple of factors in play. A truly new flagship APS-C camera will kill K-P sales and eat into K-1 sales; if it falls flat in the marketplace, RI's overall business will be damaged. It appears that the K-P is selling better than expected, the new D-FA lenses in the pipeline will be sold mostly to K-1 owners, competitors are pulling in their horns in a stagnant market, Ricoh has been involved in taking a hard look at all of its businesses since the New Year, I can't think of any incentive for Ricoh to bring the K-3ii Successor to market more quickly. On the other hand, I can't see manufacturing capacity being a constraint at this time and Pentax production volume is low enough that there shouldn't be much of an inventory backlog, so if there is still demand for the K-3ii, it would make sense that Ricoh hasn't stopped manufacturing it. On the other, other hand, if Ricoh has in fact stopped taking orders for the K-3ii, that would be a sign that a truly new flagship APS-C camera is ready to be released shortly.

Without any more solid information, I think any retailer who shows the K-3ii as discontinued has decided to sell the K-P for now and wait for the K-3ii Successor. There isn't a steady stream of camera buyers anywhere who can't delay their purchases for a few months; at the retail level, photographic equipment doesn't turn over very quickly, so why bring in K-3ii's if they have to be drastically discounted once the K-3ii Successor is finally announced? My guess is that the K-3ii Successor will be announced later this fall to hang onto pent up demand until 2018.
07-15-2017, 10:20 AM - 1 Like   #400
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Why mirrorless?

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Talking heads and smartphone fans for years have been talking the demise of the desktop. "Soon we won't see desktop PCs anymore. Gone but from history." I've read for the past 10 years now. Ok but I'm typing this on desktop from home, I work on a desktop in the office. They'd didn't just magically disappear with the advent and adoption of the smartphone or tablet device.

The same goes for mirrorless ILCs versus DSLRs.
Maybe. Someone here recently said argument by analogy can be inaccurate. Depends what trends are in motion and morph into something unexpected. Using the computer analogy, at work, we still buy "desktop" PC's (very small footprint) for routine workers who are not expected to need any kind of portability, 7am-4pm worker-bees. Their attitude is, I am done with my shift, don't bother me.

Among managers, who need accessibility anywhere, email is dominant on the cell phone, and a laptop with docking station at office and home. So, the laptop has become the new desktop. Semi-portable compared to "tablets" and more useful. Only this year, we have introduced tablets for retail store managers for a limited, narrow reporting function. What has enabled that, besides the tablet itself, are easy to setup WiFi over the network for secure usage AND the app to enable the reporting. This is not new technology, BUT it is CHEAPER now to implement.

Just yesterday, I ordered 2 laptops that will fold back all the way and ACT like a tablet if needed (Lenovo Yoga). People hate not having a keyboard available when sitting, so the keyboard is not going away anytime soon. AND, it is thought that detachable keyboards and mouse pads will end up breaking or get lost, so that functionality still has to be physically part of the design. We will see, we don't know yet if that is accurate for future "laptops".

Analog to this little story?? I don't know. Maybe DSLR's can morph into the similar situation where certain features of mirrorless are so annoying, that DSLR's can adapt. Or NOT! We don't know yet. Every EVF I have looked through gives me a headache. Small cameras are harder to hold unless the strap wraps around my hand/wrist. The lenses are not that much smaller than DSLR lenses (assuming the same sized sensor), both in girth and length (except for the savings in registration distance). Certainly, any WiFi/connectivity features in a mirrorless can easily be put into a DSLR, that is not an issue in my mind. I guess it boils down to two markets, one for "convenience" and another market for real photographic TOOLS that help someone be creative with output (which now includes software too!).

Ricoh has some tough decisions to make but it may take a while before they decide. K1 is a success and refreshed lenses are coming along slowly. They may decide to take APSC mirrorless and stuff those with "convenience" features. If that happens, there may be a large revolt amongst the Pentax base who would have to ditch their K-mount lenses, quite expensive for amateurs and hobbyists. Or Ricoh may just say, forget the whole thing and sell it off to someone else to deal with. Complicated market, we don't know how it will shake out!

But the K-mount seems to keep living on for some reason....
07-15-2017, 10:22 AM   #401
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@RGlasel .It isn't the components themselves that's expensive or not expensive. They're nearly without cost. It's the complex assembly, adjustment and calibration of the mirrorbox, prism, AF sensor(s), motors and other stuff, all which must be done by people. People are expensive, they are undependable, imprecise, take forever to train and they continue to 'cost' long after they're gone..

The manufacturing advantage of MILC is to replace expensive people assembling and adjusting analog components with inexpensive machines producing digital subassemblies, which can be manufactured without human intervention. As the oft-cited Roger Cicala Sony A7r teardown article revealed, a Sony MILC is simple and elegant internally. The sensor mount / shutter / lens plate do not need to be adjusted or calibrated. Read the article.

"The completely disassembled Sony A7R consists of about a dozen major pieces, held together with 29 screws of just three different sizes. A typical DSLR has around 120 screws of 11 different sizes. . . . This is rather amazing. How much easier it will be to fix this camera when it breaks? How much simpler it must be to perform all the calibration that must be done during assembly? And how much simpler it must be to assemble the A7R in the first place. In other words, how much cheaper it must be to make this camera, than to make a DSLR"

It doesn't really matter what traditionalists want. The manufacturers will simply abandon and replace us because they must.

Last edited by monochrome; 07-15-2017 at 11:30 AM.
07-15-2017, 10:28 AM - 2 Likes   #402
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QuoteOriginally posted by goldenarrow Quote
Maybe. Someone here recently said argument by analogy can be inaccurate. Depends what trends are in motion and morph into something unexpected. Using the computer analogy, at work, we still buy "desktop" PC's (very small footprint) for routine workers who are not expected to need any kind of portability, 7am-4pm worker-bees. Their attitude is, I am done with my shift, don't bother me.

Among managers, who need accessibility anywhere, email is dominant on the cell phone, and a laptop with docking station at office and home. So, the laptop has become the new desktop. Semi-portable compared to "tablets" and more useful. Only this year, we have introduced tablets for retail store managers for a limited, narrow reporting function. What has enabled that, besides the tablet itself, are easy to setup WiFi over the network for secure usage AND the app to enable the reporting. This is not new technology, BUT it is CHEAPER now to implement.

Just yesterday, I ordered 2 laptops that will fold back all the way and ACT like a tablet if needed (Lenovo Yoga). People hate not having a keyboard available when sitting, so the keyboard is not going away anytime soon. AND, it is thought that detachable keyboards and mouse pads will end up breaking or get lost, so that functionality still has to be physically part of the design. We will see, we don't know yet if that is accurate for future "laptops".

Analog to this little story?? I don't know.
Well then.. I'm glad we cleared that up.

I found something interesting in there though "People hate not having a keyboard available when sitting, so the keyboard is not going away anytime soon."

I think that could be said in another way "People hate not having an optical viewfinder available when shooting, so the DSLR is not going away anytime soon"

What you showed though is the market didn't go fully one way or the other. Rather, it adopted the new forms of computing. I think something very similar is happening in the camera world where we won't see DSLRs disappear, rather they'll simply be another option out of all the digital cameras on the showroom floor. How well adopted mirrorless becomes will be answered in due time. But I can understand the desire for some companies to try to push people to drink the mirrorless koolaid. It benefits them.

Either way, it isn't an all or nothing scenario with mirrorless vs DSLR.
07-15-2017, 10:30 AM   #403
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@monochrome:
And that's how you get holes in those supposedly light-tight cameras
07-15-2017, 10:40 AM - 2 Likes   #404
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For love optical viewfinders Batman

I really don't understand why people who own Pentax camera's insist that Pentax make a mirrorless camera. If you want one go buy one. Its not like you wouldn't have to buy new lenses if Pentax made a mirrorless camera. Any tech that is available to mirrorless will work on a dslr as well, eventually the hype will die down and both systems will have their place. What pentax needs to do is build the best DSLR's that they can.

Imagine a dslr with an no shutter mecanism just an electronic shutter up to 1/24000 a second.
A mirror that doesn't have to move out of they way to let light pass to the sensor.
The autofocus sensor moved to the rgb sensor with phase and contrast detect autofocus points embedded.
Sure this will still be larger than a mirrorless but but not much so, and I've tried several mirrorless and haven't found one that I would love yet and I'm not alone. DSLR's took a massive growth spurt after the turn of the century, this decade mirrorless and cell phones are getting a shot. who knows whats next. I do think that dslr's are her for a while so Im not worried.
07-15-2017, 10:44 AM - 1 Like   #405
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QuoteOriginally posted by Belnan Quote
I really don't understand why people who own Pentax camera's insist that Pentax make a mirrorless camera. If you want one go buy one. Its not like you wouldn't have to buy new lenses if Pentax made a mirrorless camera. Any tech that is available to mirrorless will work on a dslr as well, eventually the hype will die down and both systems will have their place. What pentax needs to do is build the best DSLR's that they can.

Imagine a dslr with an no shutter mecanism just an electronic shutter up to 1/24000 a second.
A mirror that doesn't have to move out of they way to let light pass to the sensor.
The autofocus sensor moved to the rgb sensor with phase and contrast detect autofocus points embedded.
Sure this will still be larger than a mirrorless but but not much so, and I've tried several mirrorless and haven't found one that I would love yet and I'm not alone. DSLR's took a massive growth spurt after the turn of the century, this decade mirrorless and cell phones are getting a shot. who knows whats next. I do think that dslr's are her for a while so Im not worried.
Let me applaud this !
And let's fight against regular & single thought inspired panurgism.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 07-15-2017 at 10:51 AM.
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