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01-25-2017, 08:57 AM - 2 Likes   #1231
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Thats correct..I said zooms 2016 and primes 2017

01-25-2017, 09:21 AM   #1232
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Come on, that is all nonsense. Designing a lens or any other item inhouse or putting it out of house is a straightforward business case which will have received very careful attention before any decision is made. Besides, you may be surprised at the huge amount of intercompany development and manufacturing which goes on across the whole industry. Think Leica do all their own full-frame stuff? Half of it is down to Panasonic, but they don't like to tell us that. Spoils the mystique. Very nice business for Panasonic, though.

None of us has the remotest idea what Pentax's profit or loss is on any items or even collectively. And nothing is overpriced, a purely subjective assessment. It is priced at what the market will bear in terms of supply and demand. These days companies have extremely sophisticated methods of modelling supply, demand and prices over the lifetime of a product, in order to maximize the overall return, and I am sure Ricoh are no exception. I've seen nothing to suggest that the K1 is anything other than a great success.

Asahi Pentax used to be optical company with profits coming from lens manufacturing. Cameras were product that sucked people and they then bought lenses.

Since digital era this changed. At first there was TOKINA which brought DA12-24/4, DFA100/2.8, DA*16-50/2.8, DA*50-135/2.8, DA35/2.8 and possibly something else. Then they divorced and now we have another joint with Tamron. DA18-250, DA18-270, DFA15-30, DFA24-70 and maybe something more this year..

The result is, that company that used to be excellent optic design powerhouse shrinked to company, that is mostly buying OEM lenses and building cameras.
Another result is, that there are no more Tokina lenses for K mount and Tamron lenses in production are being discontinued while new tamron lenses do not have K versions..


Concerning the pricing, if the same Tamron 15-30/2.8 for Canon and Nikon costs 50% less on some markets than DFA15-30/2.8 which is the same lens with killed VC and shortened warranty, I call this overpriced. Because market is not forced to choose if to buy that DFA or if NOT. Market has choice to buy that canon or nikon with tamron and save money on lenses in result.

Ricoh market share even in home Japan is dropping. And this is one of reasons why.


Same applies for HD-DA conversions of SMC-DA limiteds. Those lenses started to be slightly more expensive around 2009. But now these new HD-DA versions went even higher... and how they are selling now?
Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad..



Pentax is not Leica where even the most stupid and extremely overpriced product with red mark will be bought as collective relic. And if Ricoh is trying to push Pentax ship this way, it will sink soon.
01-25-2017, 09:21 AM - 3 Likes   #1233
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
70-200/2.8 and 150-450 are being produced in small quantities with significant manual work = probably even negative profit even though they cost those big prices, but development cost and manufacturing cost is huge... anyway these lenses are a must if one wants to sell at least some cameras.
Then tell me, how is Ricoh Imaging still turning a (and increasing its) profit? They must have a mighty incompetent management team to sell expensive lenses at a loss, and at the time incredibly lucky to have found the pot of gold Japanese leprechauns buried under the end of the rainbow

Be honest, you completely made that up. You have no way of knowing the profit margins of Pentax lenses.

QuoteQuote:
c) Im not doing that. K-1 sales are well described by many sellers. After initial boom like 4-5 months after K-1 was introduced sales went down quite fast and now these bodies are on stock everywhere and Ricoh is starting with sales actions and rebates just to keep them selling at least somehow.
Of course it's in stock, that's how it's supposed to be! The K-1 actually went up in price in Germany, from the introductory price of €2,000, to €2,100 now. In the UK it was introduced at £1,600, cheapest I can now find it is £1,690. In the US it originally cost $2,000, it is now down to $1,820.

So in two countries and currencies it has actually become more expensive, whereas in the US it has barely lost 10% in price. That is perfectly in line with cameras by other companies, considering the K-1 has now been available for over 9 months.
01-25-2017, 09:24 AM - 4 Likes   #1234
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
X
Good grief, you are posting the nonsense and factual inaccuracies faster than I can correct them ...

01-25-2017, 09:29 AM - 3 Likes   #1235
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
Considering lenses for K-1

15-30 is being bought from Tamron and then sold to us overpriced = almost zero profit
24-70 is being bought from Tamron and then sold to us overpriced = almost zero profit
70-200/2.8 and 150-450 are being produced in small quantities with significant manual work = probably even negative profit even though they cost those big prices, but development cost and manufacturing cost is huge... anyway these lenses are a must if one wants to sell at least some cameras.


Only lenses that create money are all those mass produced lenses with little glass elements and plastic bodies like 18-55, 50-200, 55-300, 18-135, 16-85, 40/2.8, 35/2.4, 50/1.8, where most of operations are performed by machines in large quantities.


c) Im not doing that. K-1 sales are well described by many sellers. After initial boom like 4-5 months after K-1 was introduced sales went down quite fast and now these bodies are on stock everywhere and Ricoh is starting with sales actions and rebates just to keep them selling at least somehow.

Reality.
Jeez again, what is it with all the negativity from the eastern bloc

The Tamron lenses, they are Tamron designs Pentax glass and coating, different cost structure, different rendering easy to compare buy the cheap Tamron 70-200 an d the expensive Pentax and compare . Also going outside for this does not mean lost money or zero profit , for years the Tamron partnership was good for both brands then Hoya screwed it up, Particularly in Japan it's not an unusual thing for this type of cross partnership (usually it is tied to a Keiretsu, but not always, for instance Fuji and Sony are part of the same Keiretsu yet are big competitors there is shared tech, Ricoh Canon and Hitachi in the industrial area are part of the same Keiretsu, yet are all fierce competitors , but still will have interaction. Japanese business is very different from the model most of us think of. it ties back to the Zaibatsu pre war and going back to the 19th century essentially family controlled monopolies. when they were disbanded by law variants on the ideas of co-operating came about through banking groups instead)
yes they are expensive but no they are not identical lenses (when they have done that with just a coating change the pentax still outperformed the Tamron and sold at a higher price - the old 28-20 is a good example , neither were great but the pentax was better

yes mass produced lenses like the plastic fantastics sell more volume....at slimmer margins so they have to

and no without verifiable published numbers your K1 sales hypothesis is just that a hypothesis .
01-25-2017, 09:39 AM   #1236
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Then tell me, how is Ricoh Imaging still turning a (and increasing its) profit? They must have a mighty incompetent management team to sell expensive lenses at a loss, and at the time incredibly lucky to have found the pot of gold Japanese leprechauns buried under the end of the rainbow
.

They are not selling only Pentax cameras and lenses. Remember that Theta for example? Not to mention other branches with printers and other products completely unrelated to cameras.

Anyway concerning profit increase, there is no such info. Just that whole Ricoh keeps finances under control as in mid
2016 they showed dropping figures and they wanted to improve that by the end of year. But this can be created by several ways including people loosing jobs to shrink cost and by selling estate. Even results in 10/2016 showed quite a big loss with profits going down.

Btw

Ricoh Income Statement for 2016, 2015 - Amigobulls





Anyway this went pretty away from KP/K3III/K2 APS-C discussion...

---------- Post added 25-01-17 at 05:43 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by eddie1960 Quote
Jeez again, what is it with all the negativity from the eastern bloc

The Tamron lenses, they are Tamron designs Pentax glass and coating, different cost structure, different rendering easy to compare buy the cheap Tamron 70-200 an d the expensive Pentax and compare . Also going outside for this does not mean lost money or zero profit , for years the Tamron partnership was good for both brands then Hoya screwed it up, Particularly in Japan it's not an unusual thing for this type of cross partnership (usually it is tied to a Keiretsu, but not always, for instance Fuji and Sony are part of the same Keiretsu yet are big competitors there is shared tech, Ricoh Canon and Hitachi in the industrial area are part of the same Keiretsu, yet are all fierce competitors , but still will have interaction. Japanese business is very different from the model most of us think of. it ties back to the Zaibatsu pre war and going back to the 19th century essentially family controlled monopolies. when they were disbanded by law variants on the ideas of co-operating came about through banking groups instead)
yes they are expensive but no they are not identical lenses (when they have done that with just a coating change the pentax still outperformed the Tamron and sold at a higher price - the old 28-20 is a good example , neither were great but the pentax was better

yes mass produced lenses like the plastic fantastics sell more volume....at slimmer margins so they have to

and no without verifiable published numbers your K1 sales hypothesis is just that a hypothesis .

What are you talking about? Maybe think more before posting.

DFA*70-200/2.8 is not Tamron design and nobody stated that. Tamron 70-200/2.8 has nothing to do with it. Tamron 70-200/2.8VC also has nothing common.


Im talking about DFA15-30/2.8 and DFA24-70/2.8 WHICH ARE REBADGED TAMRON LENSES WITH IDENTICAL PERFORMANCE, IDENTICAL ELEMENTS, IDENTICAL COATING, IDENTICAL AF MOTOR, IDENTICAL WEATHER RESISTANCE build by same factory.


Reality:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Pentax-D-FA-15-30mm-SDM-WR/dp/B01BWE914S/ref=sr_1_1...s=pentax+15+30
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tamron-15-30mm-f2-8-USD-Canon/dp/B00R5RHCDE/ref=sr_...s=tamron+15+30

Last edited by xmeda; 01-25-2017 at 09:54 AM.
01-25-2017, 09:45 AM   #1237
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
At first there was TOKINA which brought [..] DA*16-50/2.8, DA*50-135/2.8 [..]
Those are patented Pentax lenses, produced by Tokina, not vice versa. Any proofs that DA12-24/4, DFA100/2.8, DA35/2.8 were Tokina designs?
01-25-2017, 09:47 AM - 2 Likes   #1238
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
They are not selling only Pentax cameras and lenses. Remember that Theta for example? Not to mention other branches with printers and other products completely unrelated to cameras.
The Theta is a valid point, but I was talking about Ricoh Imaging - that doesn't include printers or anything else. In fact Ricoh overall is doing worse, but the Imaging business is doing well.

QuoteQuote:
Anyway concerning profit increase, there is no such info. Just that whole Ricoh keeps finances under control as in mid
2016 they showed dropping figures and they wanted to improve that by the end of year. But this can be created by several ways including people loosing jobs to shrink cost and by selling estate. Even results in 10/2016 showed quite a big loss with profits going down.
Nope, in both recent financial reports they made specific references to the camera division having increasing profits.

01-25-2017, 09:52 AM - 3 Likes   #1239
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
Those are patented Pentax lenses, produced by Tokina, not vice versa. Any proofs that DA12-24/4, DFA100/2.8, DA35/2.8 were Tokina designs?
Actually, the 12-24mm f/4 corresponds to a Tokina-patented optical formula. The other lenses in the partnership have Pentax-patented optical formulas.

And each of Pentax and Tokina produced their own version with different motors (or no motor), different casing, different AF/MF clutch, etc. Only the optical design was shared.
01-25-2017, 09:54 AM - 1 Like   #1240
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To say honest, it's more interesting for me when we can see GRII and K-3II's replacement and new lenses?
01-25-2017, 09:54 AM - 2 Likes   #1241
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QuoteOriginally posted by Foxbat Quote
Those are patented Pentax lenses, produced by Tokina, not vice versa. Any proofs that DA12-24/4, DFA100/2.8, DA35/2.8 were Tokina designs?
They were patented by Pentax and produced by Pentax in its Vietnamese factory. Tokina build its own, fo Nikon and Canon, in Japan, by the same Pentax patents. And it's the same for the 35 macro: The reverse is true for the 12-24. But in any case Tokina never built any DA lens for Pentax, only exchange of patents
01-25-2017, 09:55 AM   #1242
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Actually, the 12-24mm f/4 corresponds to a Tokina-patented optical formula. The other lenses in the partnership have Pentax-patented optical formulas.

And each of Pentax and Tokina produced their own version with different motors (or no motor), different casing, different AF/MF clutch, etc.
Thanks for the info, I've seen the patent application for 16-50 and 50-135 somewhere on dpreview forums, but never seen any proof about other mentioned by xmeda.

QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
They were patented by Pentax and produced by Pentax in its Vietnamese factory. Tokina build its own, fo Nikon and Canon, in Japan, by the same Pentax patents. And it's the same for the 35 macro: The reverse is true for the 12-24. But in any case Tokina never built any DA lens for Pentax, only exchange of patents
Exactly my point.
01-25-2017, 09:56 AM   #1243
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QuoteOriginally posted by xmeda Quote
Th





Anyway this went pretty away from KP/K3III/K2 APS-C discussion...

---------- Post added 25-01-17 at 05:43 PM ----------




What are you talking about? Maybe think more before posting.

DFA*70-200/2.8 is not Tamron design and nobody stated that. Tamron 70-200/2.8 has nothing to do with it. Tamron 70-200/2.8VC also has nothing common.


Im talking about DFA15-30/2.8 and DFA24-70/2.8 WHICH ARE REBADGED TAMRON LENSES WITH IDENTICAL PERFORMANCE, IDENTICAL ELEMENTS, IDENTICAL COATING, IDENTICAL AF MOTOR, IDENTICAL WEATHER RESISTANCE build by same factory.

sorry meant to type 24-70
and no they aren't identical
are you able to even compare them
getting production done by Tamron has never meant identical, Pentax specs their coatings and their glass grade. unless you actually work in the plant or wrote the contract you wouldn't know. I have sold their products when they foirst rebadged I understand how the system works, maybe because i have some experience you don't. Grow up , stop trolling, if you really dislike the products being offered that much there's the door, I'm by no means a total fanboy but i completely get what Ricoh is doing they are building a brand that was near ruined by the previous owner that takes time and the market is fluid so they adapt. last year saw zoms this year will see primes, last year the k70 came along and K1 , this year will be KP and K3ii replacement. compared to a decade back it's a completely different company. far stronger, and with a plan to quote Monochrome.

As for profits. the imaging division is profitable and with profit growth, It does not include copiers(if it did it likely would be struggling it is a rapidly contracting industry) , we will never get the full financials for a few reasons , not the least of which is Japanese disclosure rules are different . sure the theta helps, but guaranteed the lens and body sales caused by the K1 were very profitable. the whole point of that end of the market is higher margins offsetting lower unit sales.
the low margin is in the low end, which hopefully moves units
01-25-2017, 10:17 AM - 5 Likes   #1244
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QuoteOriginally posted by shakereduced Quote
Japanese website Nokishita Camera is reporting that Pentax has registered a DSLR called the KP in Indonesia:

???????「PENTAX KP」???????????|?????????

Google translates the article as:

"Pentax's unpublished single lens reflex camera "PENTAX KP" has been registered as a certification body in Indonesia.

Indonesia POSTEL (line 95)
Company name: Ricoh Imaging Co., Ltd.
Device name: Single lens reflex camera
Country of origin: Philippines
Registration date: January 11, 2017

It seems that Pentax is preparing a new K mount machine. I think that it is not a rumored vintage mirrorless camera because it is a single lens reflex, but I am looking forward to announcing what kind of model KP will be."
looks like the ad on Amazon has been posted - $1199.

https://www.amazon.com/Pentax-Black-Body-Ultra-Compact-Weatherproof/dp/B01N5...ords=pentax+kp
01-25-2017, 10:38 AM - 1 Like   #1245
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QuoteOriginally posted by GearHead Quote
looks like the ad on Amazon has been posted - $1199.
Some new pics on that too, or at least pics I hadn't seen (with 16-85 and the black and silver side-by-side on a reflective table). Thanks!

Looks like $CDN1500 on amazon.ca. Very expensive, IMHO.
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