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01-17-2017, 03:26 AM - 1 Like   #121
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BCN Ranking lists 23 retailers on its website. The ones of note for cameras are Bic Camera, Amazon (not as big as in other countries), a couple of more specialized camera retailers, a number of electronics chains that are not so serious about cameras, and a few other online retailers. I think that they have around 50%, but more towards the consumer end. If they claim 60%, it is probably a figure for the electronics market as a whole. On the whole, these are just not the shops people go to by a Pentax, or any specialised camera.

But the fact remains that Ricoh sold less units on this specific ranking. That in itself is not good. My interpretation of this is that Ricoh's entry level models have not been very compelling this year. I think it's important for them do something about that, because the enthusiasts of tomorrow are the beginners of today. That's why Canon stays so strong.

I also think it's no coincidence that Canon, the one company that doesn't rely on Sony sensors, did so well. We know that the earthquake has had an effect on the other makers' ability to ship products. It's been a funny year, and may not reflect the intrinsic demand for their product.

Finally, the comments combining this incomplete BCN data with CIPA shipment data (not sales) are completely misleading.

In any case, Ricoh will report their quarterly results at the end of the month, so we'll see how they actually are doing. My guess is sales value up.

01-17-2017, 03:44 AM - 1 Like   #122
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Maybe it's the K-50 being retired?

You know what would help with those purely unit-based "statistics"? A very cheap camera, sold very cheap, so everybody would make a loss
01-17-2017, 05:23 AM   #123
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somebody else needs to worry

I do not think there is any worrying trend on Pentax side. The BCN data shows a rather stable market share.

The one which is really dropping off a cliff is somebody else: Nikon.
Years ago they were close to offering products that were able to compete with Canon. Now they lost 50% of their relative market to Canon in only 3-4 years. Loosing 11% of market share to Canon is quite some feat, it is 200% of all Pentax market share in Japan.

And regardless of what brand fans think, at least in Japanese view Canon produces the way best quality cameras and lenses with nobody else even playing in the same league.

Interestingly also Sigma has not been able to improve their (poor) product quality perception in the least during all those years (in contrast to forum fan opinion). They sell the same market share of lenses as they always did. Obviously the mandatory minimum 30-40% price discount Sigma (same as other 3rd party makers) have to provide versus OEM lenses of the exact same specs is not enough to improve their lens competitiveness as judged by the photographers in the market.
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01-17-2017, 05:35 AM   #124
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It's logical Canon's share is larger this year. The brought out a number of signifcant Camera's (5D MkIV and 80D especially) and they didn't suffer from the Kunamoto earthquake that hit Sony hard and so also Nikon and Pentax.

01-17-2017, 05:45 AM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by zapp Quote
The Art series lenses are currently unmatched
Those lenses are designed to test well. And they do. However I, for one, would rather own a FA31 with character than an ART 35 with good test results.

And the Sigma lenses are huge, some have AF issues, are not WR (not all Pentax primes are, granted). Results when looking at star charts don't tell the whole story.

Just look at the SMC DA21 and DA15. Those lenses create starbursts that are almost impossible to find with other lenses (trust me, I've tried). No test chart will show you that.
01-17-2017, 05:45 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
It's logical Canon's share is larger this year. The brought out a number of signifcant Camera's (5D MkIV and 80D especially) and they didn't suffer from the Kunamoto earthquake that hit Sony hard and so also Nikon and Pentax.
I don't think that is so easy:
  • your points do not cover the lens trends
  • the trends were there the year before already
  • the 5d4 was only available for about 1/4 of 2016.
  • the 5d4 price level is so high I would not expect it to have any significant impact on unit sales based market share
But yes, the 80D and less impact from the earthquake certainly helped.
01-17-2017, 05:51 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
It's logical Canon's share is larger this year. The brought out a number of significant Camera's (5D MkIV and 80D especially) and they didn't suffer from the Kunamoto earthquake that hit Sony hard and so also Nikon and Pentax.
I think it's more the second reason than the first. Since these shares are calculated according to the number of units sold, not the turnover generated, they are mainly driven by the sales of entry to mid level cameras. What we see for 2016 is first and foremost the result of the match between

Kiss X70 (Rebel T5 / 1200D) + 1300D (Rebel T6) + 100D (Rebel SL1) + Kiss X7i (Rebel T5i / 700D) + Kiss X8i (Rebel T6i / 750D) + 8000D (Rebel T6s / 760D)

and

D3300 + D3400 + D5300 + D5500 + D5600.
01-17-2017, 06:23 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
The one which is really dropping off a cliff is somebody else: Nikon. Years ago they were close to offering products that were able to compete with Canon.
Actually, I am particularly sad to see Nikon do badly because in my opinion their products are better than Canon's, at least they have been over the past couple of years. Their cameras have better image quality (Sony sensors), they have come to have better AF systems etc. The D810 is still a better camera than the new 5D Mk IV is, and I am 100% sure the D820 will be even better. The D500 handily beats the 7D Mk II (I know it's newer too) etc.

I don't really get why Canon is doing better than Nikon - maybe their lenses have an edge?

01-17-2017, 06:29 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dariusz Quote
There will be a day Sigma will return, and on their knees, to Pentax, but, by that time, there will be enough of other than Sigma glass available
I would very much doubt that I think Pentax mount for Sigma is only a pimple on the bum for them like all other 3rd party lens makers
01-17-2017, 06:41 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
(...)

I don't really get why Canon is doing better than Nikon - maybe their lenses have an edge?
Better marketing / brand recognition and a larger offer in the entry level to mid-market segments. Again, don't forget the BCN figures we are discussing are all about units sold.
01-17-2017, 06:49 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Better marketing / brand recognition and a larger offer in the entry level to mid-market segments. Again, don't forget the BCN figures we are discussing are all about units sold.
exactly winning the numbers game on units just means you flood the market with dirt cheap entry level kits (and market as the brand pros use, with shots taken by camera rigs costing 10-30 time what the kits sell for by guys paid for the shot easily 10+ times what a kits sells for .....but that two lens kit rebel is going to let the soccer mom get the SI shot of little johnny.....not
01-17-2017, 06:49 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Actually, I am particularly sad to see Nikon do badly because in my opinion their products are better than Canon's, at least they have been over the past couple of years. Their cameras have better image quality (Sony sensors), they have come to have better AF systems etc. The D810 is still a better camera than the new 5D Mk IV is, and I am 100% sure the D820 will be even better. The D500 handily beats the 7D Mk II (I know it's newer too) etc.

I don't really get why Canon is doing better than Nikon - maybe their lenses have an edge?
They make cameras that actually work without almost any maintenance for years of usage, and have much smaller factory malfunction rate, no dust or oil spots included(D800,D810,D600) or failing shutter module(D750). Pealing of camera and lens body rubbers etc. I hope they learned the lesson for D500, but time will tell.
Nikon got serious beating over that.
01-17-2017, 06:55 AM   #133
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QuoteOriginally posted by FantasticMrFox Quote
Actually, I am particularly sad to see Nikon do badly because in my opinion their products are better than Canon's, at least they have been over the past couple of years. Their cameras have better image quality (Sony sensors), they have come to have better AF systems etc. The D810 is still a better camera than the new 5D Mk IV is, and I am 100% sure the D820 will be even better. The D500 handily beats the 7D Mk II (I know it's newer too) etc.

I don't really get why Canon is doing better than Nikon - maybe their lenses have an edge?
Making better product is no assurance of market dominance, pentax would have much higher share if that was true, the entry level pentax like the K50 and K-S2 crush the competition out of the box IMO, but rankings are about marketing and Pentax hasn't done that well since the Spotmatic girl ads in japan


01-17-2017, 07:22 AM - 2 Likes   #134
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I know many of the figures quoted above are for Japan, but a glance at the CIPA figures suggests that shipments to Asia are what is keeping the show on the road for the camera-makers generally. Asia provides nearly as much turnover as Europe and America combined, and more in a few categories. A big swing in tastes in Asia will really start to change things.

I would guess that Canon doing well recently over Nikon reflects Canon's massive sales and marketing machine in Asia and I suspect Canon has been cleaning up in China compared to everyone else. The area I live in receives several million Chinese visitors a year - so much so that my other half found a couple of them in her garden hedge last year but that is another story. My anecdotal impression is that they prefer Canon cameras over any other by quite a margin. Nikon attracted the displeasure of the Chinese government over their handling of the D600 affair which can hardly have helped them. OK, the earthquake in Japan has knocked Nikon, but I think Canon were pulling well ahead already.

Canon's recent activity in mirrorless with the M5 points the same way. The M5 is an easy camera for enthusiasts to dismiss but it is also an easy camera for regular folks to like a great deal - not complicated, not fussy, does the job, good image quality, comes from a solid brand, and linked via an adapter to the wider world of Canon equipment. My guess is that if Canon play it right they will soon start to dominate mirrorless and move even further ahead of Nikon which at the present time seem to have no mirrorless strategy at all. Heck, if Canon made an M5++ with some more serious features and grunt, I would very likely buy one myself. Unlike the improbably priced offerings from some other brands, their lenses so far for the M5/EF-M mount are of perfectly reasonable quality, nothing spectacular but nothing bad either and no ridiculous sticker pricing.

My guess is that what we are seeing is Nikon being well and truly sunk into number 3 status from here on in, behind Canon and (alas) Sony across the market as a whole (obviously not the case in some areas, like DSLRs). I don't like that, since I value Nikon and what they do, but they were dealt the same hand as everyone else and the result is what it is.

Last edited by mecrox; 01-17-2017 at 07:47 AM.
01-17-2017, 09:05 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by Reed Quote
They make cameras that actually work without almost any maintenance for years of usage, and have much smaller factory malfunction rate, no dust or oil spots included(D800,D810,D600) or failing shutter module(D750).
Or untreatable focus issues in artificial light (K-r/K-5), or aperture control failures (K-30/K-50) ... But I was under the impression that Canon also had their fair share of problems (1D Mk III focus issues, 70D focus issues).
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