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01-26-2018, 05:11 AM   #136
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New Canon 40mm Pancake - A Threat to Pentax? - Article and Tips | PentaxForums.com

01-26-2018, 05:34 AM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Fogel70 Quote
Mirrorless short flange system (can) offer more flexibility and a larger range of products, which is what I believe many users like. In the same system there may be a very compact camera equipped with a pancake lens for a ILC that fit in a jacket pocket and also a larger DSLR sized camera better optimized for large lenses.

It seems you are only looking at smallest possible MILC, and not DSLR sized MILCs like Panasonic G9 that are about the same size as K1. Mirrorless can be smaller than DSLR, but they can be just as large too.

I also believe many users like systems that are optimized for both video and for photography. A system where most lenses are designed for autofocus in video.

Most system based on old SLR mount looks outdated for many new users that are looking to invest in a new system.
Trying to optimize a system both for old SLR users as well as new mirrorless users, that have different priorities are going to be difficult. It may just end up with a bad compromise that is poorly optimized for both types of users.
AGAIN, I advocate nothing. I’m asking questions.

So really there isn’t one mirrorless size standard. You describe at least two - almost as large as a small dSLR, formatted for large lenses and pocket-sized, formatted for small lenses. Pentax could make a good camera formatted for either format and compete in part of the market - say, based on a KP for large lenses, or a larger Q for small lenses.

I do sense an emerging consistent response - people on this forum assume excellent video is required in ANY MILC.
01-26-2018, 06:40 AM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
AGAIN, I advocate nothing. I’m asking questions.

So really there isn’t one mirrorless size standard. You describe at least two - almost as large as a small dSLR, formatted for large lenses and pocket-sized, formatted for small lenses. Pentax could make a good camera formatted for either format and compete in part of the market - say, based on a KP for large lenses, or a larger Q for small lenses.
Yes that seems possible, but they need to share lens mount if it should be any point with them as most people prefer to only invest in one system. So they can share lenes between their cameras (if they have more than one camera).

QuoteQuote:
I do sense an emerging consistent response - people on this forum assume excellent video is required in ANY MILC.
Many that invest in a new camera system has smartphones as reference and they expect a major upgrade on both video and photography when upgrading with a camera system of any type. Smartphones have had 4K video for many years, with autofocus and often very good image stabilisation, so this is what many new users expect to find in their new cameras too.
01-26-2018, 06:51 AM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
AGAIN, I advocate nothing. I’m asking questions.

So really there isn’t one mirrorless size standard. You describe at least two - almost as large as a small dSLR, formatted for large lenses and pocket-sized, formatted for small lenses. Pentax could make a good camera formatted for either format and compete in part of the market - say, based on a KP for large lenses, or a larger Q for small lenses.

I do sense an emerging consistent response - people on this forum assume excellent video is required in ANY MILC.
My experience is that the real draw for enthusiasts, at least in the MOR generalist cameras, is first WYSIWYG in the viewfinder together with exposure blinkies, focus peaking, a histogram +/- whatever else someone wants; and second, incredibly responsive CDAF focusing (though it has limits and drawbacks too) which can be located almost anywhere on the sensor. This can be extended to stuff like eye-tracking. Overall, it's a different vibe and different experience. Some love it, some don't. It does relieve one of a lot of the need for chimping, lens calibration and so on. Very fast frame rates are also possible if the sensor is modern enough to clear the data quickly but only a few folks really need that. Silent shooting with an electronic shutter is a useful and welcome feature for some.

For others, it is size, convenience, fashion and smartphone-like operation. Items like some of the Canon M series or the Olympus Pens. They don't have a viewfinder but they do seem extremely popular in points East. Easy to put in a pocket or bag, especially with a small prime or a folding zoom lens. Fun, and fashionable perhaps. Pentax tapped right into this with the Q but times and fashions too have moved on from that era.

Size is a function of format, I think. There maybe some saving using a thinner register distance but this soon vanishes when one gets into big, fast zooms because by far the most of the size/weight is in the lens. But for primes of around f1.8, yes things can be kept small and compact as they are on for example M43. But: a hitch. Fast CDAF really needs lenses and lens motors designed for it. Just repurposing old stuff would keep one out of the Premier League or even burn out an older kind of motor. The kit has to be designed for it.

I think good video is in fact extremely difficult to do well. Not the least of the engineering problems is dealing with heat and power draw, before one even gets into video-friendly lenses. I don't think it's an accident that while the world + wife advertise themselves as 4K capable, only a handful cameras seem to be really considered options if you're serious about it (the Panasonic GH5, e.g.). And they and the lenses are not cheap.


Last edited by mecrox; 01-26-2018 at 07:14 AM.
01-27-2018, 05:18 AM   #140
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What I said.
And worse if we take real volume into account.
01-27-2018, 06:22 AM   #141
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Biggest difference in these lenses from a user standpoint is that the Pentax is stabilized and the Canon isn't. If Canon would add stabilization to this lens certainly it would be a pancake no longer. Of course, that is a difference in philosophy between the two companies (lens versus sensor stabilization), but regardless, it does effect the use of a relatively slow aperture lens like a 40mm f2.8.
02-12-2018, 11:45 AM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Lenses in Minolta AF / Sony A mount do have an aperture lever.

Nikon "E" lenses aren't that new or that few: the first three were announced in 2008, almost ten years ago, and, among the 96 Nikkor lenses listed on their website (among which 8 are Ai-s manual focus lenses and 14 are AF D screw-driven lenses), 18 are E lenses.
This was a surprise to me, so I went and looked it up on this Nikon lens database. Turns out that the only E lenses introduced in 2008 were tilt-shifts; we then had one in 2013 and one in 2014 (both of which are exotic supertelephotos), and only then did we get all the rest.

Moreover, setting aside the tilt-shifts, the other E lenses are:
  • Fisheye zoom
  • 28/1.4
  • 105/1.4
  • 300/4
  • Four supertelephotos that cost 5 figures each (400/2.8, 500/4, 600/4, 800/5.6)
  • 24-70/2.8
  • 70-300/4.5-5.6
  • 70-200/2.8
  • 200-500/5.6
  • DX 16-80/2.8-4
So given the lack of good old standards like any 24/35/50/85mm primes, combined with the huge majority of "E" lenses (I mean total volume, not number of distinct models) only having been sold in the past three years, I think my original point still stands: that any adapter that didn't support "G" and older lenses via a mechanical aperture actuator would not sell enough to justify its existence.

Last edited by Scintilla; 02-12-2018 at 11:46 AM. Reason: clarify some wording
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