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01-19-2017, 04:10 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by pakinjapan Quote
I see, thanks for point that out. Sony is for sure one of the leader in that market.
According to the given link,

Mirror-less market:
  1. Olympus 26.8
  2. Canon 18.5%
  3. Sony 17.9%
These figures are clearly problematic.

They ask us to believe more Canon EOS-Ms are sold than all of the Sony APS-C and FF models put together.

01-19-2017, 04:47 AM   #32
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Similarly.. there will always be brick and mortar shops.. even for electronics.. the human itch to touch and have it now is irresistible to many. Plus some just don't like to do business online, would rather deal with a person than a chat window or phone call.
What I see here in Italy is that many people goes to brick and mortar shops to touch, try and evaluate items, then buy them on-line. The trend is that all the small electronic vendors are closing their business, like most of photographic shop have done in the last decade. So Amazon now needs outlets to let people try before buying (online), after having put out of business most of the B&M shops which "parasitized" before.
01-19-2017, 04:57 AM   #33
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Combining CIPA unit sales with BCN figures for both DSLRs and DSLMs you get this:

The massive nosedives Nikon and Sony are taking is pretty much in line with their negative financial reports. Look at the downward angle they take.

And all this makes you wonder how poorly Fuji actually performs in the market as they never even managed to get into those charts, even though the threshold is very low.
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01-19-2017, 05:33 AM   #34
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From your chart it appears the variance in Pentax market share is more related to other makers' unit volume changes the to Pentax's unit changes.

01-19-2017, 05:47 AM   #35
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What make Canon is so strong, beside the big ads, is the new STM lenses. They have very solid lens line up, which Nikon and Pentax can't compete. Perhaps, if Pentax renew the APS-C lenses with PLM tech, maybe Pentax can gain market better.
01-19-2017, 07:17 AM - 6 Likes   #36
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I don't see any mystery in why Canon is doing so well in these shops with the M cameras. I think they are perfectly designed for the target. They are small, simple to use, have a good touch screen and are fairly priced in Japan. Bear in mind that this is basically before the M5 came out, so I can only imagine that Canon will get stringer next year. Compare that with the other mirrorless manufacturers, who have been trying to push everything upmarket, and fight amongst themselves over the enthusiast market. It's a completely different approach.

With regards to the real consumer market, I think Ricoh has also got it wrong with cameras like the K-30, K-50, K-S2 and K-70. These have got bloated with enthusiast features to the extent that they put off the average consumer. They have WR, but I don't think average consumers subject their cameras to that much punishment. They have second control wheel, but this is hardly a selling point if you don't know what the first one is for. They have a pentaprism finder, but it's a bit of an esoteric advantage over pentamirror. IBIS too is a difficult advantage to sell at that level. This series of cameras is more appealing to the enthusiast on a budget than the average consumer. And for enthusiasts there is the secondary problem that the K-5/K-3 range has been such good value that most enthusiasts would rather dig a bit deeper to buy one of those instead. I did when I bought a K-5iis over a K-S2 last year.

Pentax has had some smaller, simplified cameras in the past like the K-r and the K-S1, but not every year. Look at the figures for 2011 and 2015. These were when the K-r and the K-S1 were on the market for the whole calendar year. Pentax/Ricoh had about 7% in those years. There a lot of chuckling about simple low end cameras and their green modes, but they sell. Thom Hogan said something similar about the Pentax share, "Pentax, meanwhile, is bouncing around in a fairly narrow single digit market share, dictated a bit by when they launch new consumer-oriented DSLR products." Nikon's Slow Failure in Japan | DSLRBodies | Thom Hogan

My opinion is that Ricoh need to have at least one small and light camera in their line-up, below the K-70. Ideally it would have a good touch screen control, good wi-fi integration and be available in different colours. And it kit lens should focus silently. I don't think it's wise to avoid the low end, because it's the entry point into the system for a lot of people.

By the way, when I say "average consumer", I mean people who have no real aspiration to being great photographers or artists, but by cameras to record their vacations, children, events and so on. As I said in a previous post, BCN figures are skewed to shops in the suburbs where most serious camera buyers would not be looking.

Sorry. Long ponderous post. Congratulations if you made it this far. I am fun at parties. Honest.
01-19-2017, 07:32 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
like the K-r and the K-S1
Don't forget the K-x! I believe it's been one of the best selling Pentax DSLR's to date.
Good enough performance, simple features, OK price, plus a personality.
01-19-2017, 07:39 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Don't forget the K-x! I believe it's been one of the best selling Pentax DSLR's to date.
Good enough performance, simple features, OK price, plus a personality.
Yes. And I think the K-01 was supposed to fill this role as well, but it wouldn't be included in BCN's DSLR figures.

Actually, giving their cameras a personality is something Pentax has always been good at, That's why I think their idiosyncratic naming is kind of appropriate.


Last edited by JPT; 01-19-2017 at 07:45 AM.
01-19-2017, 08:33 AM   #39
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I don't see any mystery in why Canon is doing so well in these shops with the M cameras. I think they are perfectly designed for the target. They are small, simple to use, have a good touch screen and are fairly priced in Japan. Bear in mind that this is basically before the M5 came out, so I can only imagine that Canon will get stringer next year. Compare that with the other mirrorless manufacturers, who have been trying to push everything upmarket, and fight amongst themselves over the enthusiast market. It's a completely different approach.

With regards to the real consumer market, I think Ricoh has also got it wrong with cameras like the K-30, K-50, K-S2 and K-70. These have got bloated with enthusiast features to the extent that they put off the average consumer. They have WR, but I don't think average consumers subject their cameras to that much punishment. They have second control wheel, but this is hardly a selling point if you don't know what the first one is for. They have a pentaprism finder, but it's a bit of an esoteric advantage over pentamirror. IBIS too is a difficult advantage to sell at that level. This series of cameras is more appealing to the enthusiast on a budget than the average consumer. And for enthusiasts there is the secondary problem that the K-5/K-3 range has been such good value that most enthusiasts would rather dig a bit deeper to buy one of those instead. I did when I bought a K-5iis over a K-S2 last year.

Pentax has had some smaller, simplified cameras in the past like the K-r and the K-S1, but not every year. Look at the figures for 2011 and 2015. These were when the K-r and the K-S1 were on the market for the whole calendar year. Pentax/Ricoh had about 7% in those years. There a lot of chuckling about simple low end cameras and their green modes, but they sell. Thom Hogan said something similar about the Pentax share, "Pentax, meanwhile, is bouncing around in a fairly narrow single digit market share, dictated a bit by when they launch new consumer-oriented DSLR products." Nikon's Slow Failure in Japan | DSLRBodies | Thom Hogan

My opinion is that Ricoh need to have at least one small and light camera in their line-up, below the K-70. Ideally it would have a good touch screen control, good wi-fi integration and be available in different colours. And it kit lens should focus silently. I don't think it's wise to avoid the low end, because it's the entry point into the system for a lot of people.

By the way, when I say "average consumer", I mean people who have no real aspiration to being great photographers or artists, but by cameras to record their vacations, children, events and so on. As I said in a previous post, BCN figures are skewed to shops in the suburbs where most serious camera buyers would not be looking.

Sorry. Long ponderous post. Congratulations if you made it this far. I am fun at parties. Honest.
Your post strikes me as 100 per cent spot on. Canon know better than anyone else how to make a camera which appeals to the "average consumer" you identify. I've long thought this. And it is in this that those long years of massive expenditure on "brand identity" start to pay off. Everyone knows about Canon, pretty well everywhere. They dominate certain events and they put out a very consistent set of messages whether the audience is an "average consumer" or a professional sports photographer. They have spent years honing their offer as the dependable "no-brainer buy". I am not surprised they are doing well compared to others.

I hadn't thought about your previous point, that Ricoh have missed a trick by not keeping it simple themselves and going for a "K-r" or "K-x" type of camera but you have a strong point there. I had a K-x for years and loved it. However, I suspect Ricoh are between a rock and a hard place here. As a small company they may need better value (i.e. more money) from each unit sold so the more pop type of cameras may be problematic for them.

I was about to say that despite their small market share in the figures and graphics mentioned above, Ricoh are probably doing as well as one could expect. Their market share hasn't changed significantly since they acquired Pentax but they have hung on to it which is a feat in itself. In the meantime, I would guess they have been able to do two very important things. First, shift the mix of products up the market into more valuable items which offer a good return, such as the K3 series, the K1 and the 645 series. Second, behind the scenes, revamp/integrate the old Pentax back office stuff and revamp the factories and production facilities so that they have a modern, well-equipped department these days.

Ricoh are still left with a tricky question, though. How to keep the show on the road without having to spend millions on a forced expansion in order to attract new customers beyond the traditional Pentax base, if that is shrinking (dunno). This issue has been there since they acquired Pentax: how to grow without breaking the bank? It's a very difficult question in a falling market. I would guess that in the longer run they will have to bite the bullet with mirrorless. Particularly so if, as looks likely, Canon and their EF-M mount start to make hay among those "average consumers" you mention.
01-19-2017, 04:48 PM   #40
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
What I see here in Italy is that many people goes to brick and mortar shops to touch, try and evaluate items, then buy them on-line. The trend is that all the small electronic vendors are closing their business,...
I did that one (long ago) and feel sorry about it. My perspective about Amazon changed a lot since then too. I read some research said that Amazon business models doesn't create as many job as the small businesses they kill. Even that, they still received more government grants than it pay back in many countries. I try my very best not shop with Amazon any more.

A good thing about large electronic store here; I can show them how much the same thing is on Amazon or any online EC site, and ask if they can make it the same price for me. so far 10 out of 10 times they will do it. I think many store in the US does that as well? (sorry, I know it is off topic!)

Last edited by pakinjapan; 01-19-2017 at 04:57 PM.
01-20-2017, 12:48 AM   #41
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I try to do so too when shopping, even for guitars. If the local guy can offer a competitive price, I'll buy local.
And I was surprised they often will align so they get my money.
01-20-2017, 02:12 AM   #42
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QuoteOriginally posted by beholder3 Quote
Combining CIPA unit sales with BCN figures for both DSLRs and DSLMs you get this:
Can you explain what have you combined? At first I believed you summed shipment to abroad (CIPA) and Japan domestic sales (BCN), but units sold should be in the millions...
01-20-2017, 03:37 AM   #43
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QuoteOriginally posted by eurostar Quote
The trend is that all the small electronic vendors are closing their business, like most of photographic shop have done in the last decade.
Depends, some of them have opened an online shop and don't close :-)
My supplier here told me that he is selling a lot more online and in his shop...

The trouble is, if you have a brick& mortar shop, it covers a lot less territory, and you have to pay for cost of running the shop. Geographic coverage of an online shop is a lot wider; so even if many customers don't buy online, the geographic coverage is so much higher , and the cost so much lower that it may be more profitable to run the online business.

I know a guy who started an online shop, ran it for a decade, then he decided to rent a shop downtown to enhance his sales, after less than a year of operation, he closed the shop and continued online sales only....

---------- Post added 20-01-17 at 12:00 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
This issue has been there since they acquired Pentax: how to grow without breaking the bank?
They've launched the theta , which represent a new segment and is not tied to any mount. That's a good thing, although they would need more than one product like this one, except if the Theta sells like mobile phones.

Last edited by biz-engineer; 01-20-2017 at 04:03 AM.
01-20-2017, 04:01 AM   #44
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I am surprise Sony is not there after their monster-like A99II.
01-20-2017, 04:02 AM   #45
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
Depends, some of them have opened an online shop and don't close :-)
My supplier here told me that he is selling a lot more online and in his shop...

The trouble is, if you have a brick& mortar shop, it covers a lot less territory, and you have to pay for cost of running the shop. Geographic coverage of an online shop is a lot wider; so even if many customers don't buy online, the geographic coverage is so much higher , and the cost so much lower that it may be more profitable to run the online business.

I know a guy who started an online shop, ran it for a decade, then he decided to rent a shop downtown to enhance his sales, after less than a year of operation, he closed the shop and continued online sales only....
See, I was not complaining about Amazon, it was just my guess about why Amazon has now the need to open real stores. I live in the country, Amazon has made my life a lot better.
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